CIA Documents Provide Little Cover for Cheney Claims

By
Monday, August 24, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Former Vice President Dick Cheney (Associated Press)

Former Vice President Dick Cheney (Associated Press)

For months, former Vice President Dick Cheney has said that two documents prepared by the CIA, one from 2004 and the other from 2005, would refute critics of the Bush administration’s torture program. He told Fox’s Sean Hannity in April:

“I haven’t talked about it, but I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw, that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country,” Cheney said. “I’ve now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was.”

Illustration by: Matt Mahurin

Illustration by: Matt Mahurin

Those documents were obtained today by The Washington Independent and are available here.  Strikingly, they provide little evidence for Cheney’s claims that the “enhanced interrogation” program run by the CIA provided valuable information. In fact, throughout both documents, many passages — though several are incomplete and circumstantial, actually suggest the opposite of Cheney’s contention: that non-abusive techniques actually helped elicit some of the most important information the documents cite in defending the value of the CIA’s interrogations.

The first document, issued by the CIA in July 2004 is about the interrogation of 9/11 architect Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003 and whom, the newly released CIA Inspector General report on torture details, had his children’s lives threatened by an interrogator.  None of that abuse is referred to in the publicly released version of the July 2004 document. Instead, we learn from the July 2004 document that not only did the man known as “KSM” largely provide intelligence about “historical plots” pulled off from al-Qaeda, a fair amount of the knowledge he imparted to his interrogators came from his “rolodex” — that is, what intelligence experts call “pocket litter,” or the telling documentation found on someone’s person when captured. As well, traditional intelligence work appears to have done wonders — including a fair amount of blundering on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s part:

In response to questions about [al-Qaeda's] efforts to acquire [weapons of mass destruction], [Khalid Sheikh Mohammed] revealed that he had met three individuals involved in [al-Qaeda's] program to produce anthrax. He appears to have calculated, incorrectly, that we had this information already, given that one of the three — Yazid Sufaat — had been in foreign custody for several months.

This is a far cry from torturing Khalid Sheikh Mohammed into revealing such information. It would be tendentious to believe that the torture didn’t have any impact on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed — he himself said that he lied to interrogators in order to get the torture to stop — but the document itself doesn’t attempt to present a case that the “enhanced interrogation” program was a factor, let alone the determinant factor, in the intelligence bounty the document says he provided.

The second newly released document — a June 2005 overview of information extracted from detainees — is, if anything, more caveated. In making a case that “detainee reporting” was “pivotal for the war against [al-Qaeda],” it says that “detainee reporting is often incomplete or too general to lead directly to arrests; instead, detainees provide critical pieces to the puzzle, which, when combined with other reporting, have helped direct an investigation’s focus and led to the capture of terrorists.” Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is the prime example here.

The document also discusses unraveling the network of Indonesian al-Qaeda affiliate Hambali after Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s capture. There are repeated references to the value of “debriefings,” which the 2004 CIA inspector general’s report says are distinct from the “enhanced interrogation techniques” but can be used after they occur. For instance, “Debriefings of mid-level [al-Qaeda] operatives also have reported on specific plots against U.S. interests.” Indeed, in a section titled “Aiding Our Understanding [al-Qaeda],” a listed example is:

Abu Zubaydah’s identification early in his detention of [Khalid Sheikh Mohammed] as the mastermind of 11 September and [al-Qaeda's] premier terrorist planner and of ‘Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri as another key [al-Qaeda] operational planner corroborated information [REDACTED].

Those revelations, as former Abu Zubaydah interrogator Ali Soufan has testified, came before Abu Zubaydah was tortured.

Similarly, the document contains accounts of how interrogators performed the traditional interrogation labors of cross-checking detainees’ accounts with each other to determine veracity, and particularly when cross-referenced with “large volumes of documents and computer data”:

For example, lists of names found on the computer [REDACTED] — a key [al-Qaeda] financial operative and facilitator for the 11 September attacks — seized in March 2003 represented [al-Qaeda] members who were to receive funds. Debriefers questioned detainees extensively on the names to determine who they were and how important they were to the organization. The information [REDACTED] helped us to better understand al-Qa’ida’s hierarchy, revenues, and expenditures, [REDACTED] as well as funds that were available to families.

Again, perhaps the blacked-out lines of the memos specifically claim and document that torture and only torture yielded this information. But what’s released within them does not remotely make that case. Cheney’s public account of these documents have conflated the difference between information acquired from detainees, which the documents present, and information acquired from detainees through the enhanced interrogation program, which they don’t.

In a statement, Tom Parker, the policy director of Amnesty International’s American branch, said, “Perhaps unsurprisingly, given Vice President Cheney’s track record, the two CIA memos released today are hardly the slam dunk we had been led to expect.  There is little or no supporting evidence in either memo to give substance to the specific claims about impending attacks made by Khaled Shaik Mohammed in highly coercive circumstances.”

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Comments

276 Comments

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stephenperry
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 1:58 am

I'm really hoping that Newt Gingrich asks Cheney to head his Vice-Presidential candidate search committee.

I write that because I anticipate that Cheney will quit halfway through the committee's work and announce that he will be pulling puppet strings, I mean, become the VP choice, for Presidential-candidate Sarah Palin.


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[...] a comment » Zachary Roth at TPM and Spencer Ackerman at the Washington Independent take Dick Cheney to task over the lies he propagated yesterday. [...]


The Mahablog » Why the Dick Is So Not Vindicated
Pingback posted August 25, 2009 @ 1:49 pm

[...] Spencer Ackerman has read the documents more closely than I did. And Ackerman argues that the documents reveal that what usable information that was obtained from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed came from traditional interrogation and intelligence work, not “EITs.” [...]


IsidoroRDL
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 1:07 pm

Regarding the surreal expansion of government immunity for malfeasance and tort by the court in collusion with DOJ for accountability, I note that in 1995 I argued and won in the U.S. Supreme Court, Martinez v. Lamagno and DEA, 515 U.S. 417 (1995), where DOJ under Eric Holder surreally argued that a DEA agent outside of the US was not negligent for causing a car accident while driving drunk and having sex. Thus, it is very odd and a bit cynical that Holder will determine if those involved in torture will be prosecuted!! Because of the evidence of malfeasance of the Federal Judicial Branch conspiring within criminal collusion with Beltway Lobbyist/Attorneys and government attorneys (i.e. Eric Holder) to obstruct my rights as a father I have filed Federal Criminal Complaints under RICO in Virginia, D.C., Colorado, NY, and Pennsylvania ( http://home.earthlink.net/~malfeasance/ and http://home.earthlink.net/~treason/ ). I note that since November 2008, I advised the Obama White House of the criminal malfeasance of Holder, as the bases of my opposing his nomination and appoint as Attorney General.


GammySparkles
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 1:28 pm

I find it appauling that Eric Holder and the current administration continues down this dangerous and irresponsible road of bashing anyone prior to themselves, even though they do not have the real facts. Given the ignorant climate of folks, like the naive Scottland folks to let terrorists out of a lifetime prison sentence, even though the man is convicted of mass killings, and given the idiocy of our own nation questioning whether to let the Manson murderers out to go die, Hello Earth to IDIOTS? Wasn't the sentence for murder? So if they die in jail, is that so bad? They killed innocents? Have we decided that neutering, manipulating the cia docs to grandstand the Democratic Parties' causes more important than the national security of our Nation? Holder should be tried for Treason along with Pelosi, Reid, B. Frank, and some others. Quit bashing Cheney. He was after all, attempting to protect this nation! Anyone even remotely awake?


genomegk
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 1:49 pm

Enough to see your complete contempt for the rule of law and the value of individual integrity (Cheney's). “Earth to idiots?” On what planet do the ends justify the means. You clearly value partisan tribal drum beating more than conservative principle. Because of people like you the word “conservative” has not only lost all meaning, it has become synonymous with stupidity


I Hate What You Just Said » Blog Archive » In Brief
Pingback posted August 25, 2009 @ 2:52 pm

[...] Ackerman examines the evidence, and takes on Dick Cheney’s revolting and pathetic defense of [...]


johnhkennedy
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 2:19 pm

No surprise here. Keep agitating until Cheney is indicted.

KEEP ASKING ALL POLITICIANS AT ALL PUBLIC EVENTS

“WHY DO YOU SUPPORT TORTURE?”
If they aren't actively calling for enforcement of our Federal Torture Laws,
They DO Support Torture.

SIGN THE PETITIONS
Demanding
both a Commission of Inquiry
and prosecution for all those leaders
in Bush's Administration that
Conspired to Torture at ANGRYVOTERS.ORG

http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG

Only Prosecution Stops Torture!
Only Prosecution Stops Violations of Our Constitution and Rule Of Law.
.


Photomaniacal » Blog Archive » Michael Tomasky: I’m sure you share my shock at this
Pingback posted August 25, 2009 @ 3:25 pm

[...] quite show what Dick Cheney was saying back in the spring they’d show. Here’s Spencer Ackerman: Strikingly, they provide little evidence for Cheney’s claims that the “enhanced [...]


The Crossed Pond » The Torture Cheer
Pingback posted August 25, 2009 @ 3:28 pm

[...] [...]


franz angst
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 2:31 pm

Why has Cheney not been before a Nuremberg type tribunal, tarred,feathered and hung for getting the US into a hugely destructive war under false pretenses??


Tome
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 2:44 pm

Pelosi, Reid, Frank, Holder and Obama are the governement of the United States of America. It's people like you that criticize them that are being treasonous.


Bill
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 2:46 pm

Criminal malfeasance? Sounds like you're a nut.


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Pingback posted August 25, 2009 @ 3:47 pm

[...] We are to simply believe the Obama administration’s assertions that it no longer tortures, just because they say so, and listen to the self-righteously centrist mainstream media analysts when they declare that an investigation will be overly politicized. We can read the memos that were released along with the IG report, the ones that Dick Cheney himself requested be declassified as they would prove the torture justified, and we are to believe the assertions in those memos that detainees provided valuable intelligence, even if nowhere in them does it prove that the intelligence provided was gained through torture and torture alone. [...]


IsidoroRDL
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 2:55 pm

Bill,

If you take a moment to read and research, you will discover that my allegations are not unfounded. My objective is to obtain access to an impartial civil jury trial and court to litigate the issues alleged. I may be crazy but I am not stupid.

Query, if I as an experienced federal trail/appellate litigator can be deprived of my right to litigate the alleged malfeasance of government attorneys and judges, under civil RICO and 42 U.S.C. § 1983 to access to an impartial civil jury trial and under the Federal Tort Claims Act to an impartial court–what is either a young inexperience attorney or a layman father to do to secure rights and accountability for malfeasance? (see http://home.earthlink.net/~isidoror, and 2009 presentation to Northern VA Delegates, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAkEfjcA5sQ).


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Pingback posted August 25, 2009 @ 4:18 pm

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Pingback posted August 25, 2009 @ 4:31 pm

[...] am totally surprised that worst vice president in U.S. history turned out to be full of it. Again. Strikingly, they provide little evidence for Cheney’s claims that the ‘enhanced [...]


karen geibig
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 3:50 pm

The popularily elected govt of the USA has a constitutional responsibility to see that ALL laws are upheld….prosecuting criminals and investigating those accused of breaking the laws is NOT bashing !!.If you are interested in residing in a country where the govt can do as it sees fit there are plenty of them available and you might find yourself happier. In the mean time the vast majority of Americans have chosen to investigate and prosecute those those individuals who break our laws. If found guilty those folks are called CRIMINALS. This country has been adaquetly protected for over 200 yrs without our leaders spying on their citizens and torturing their enemies. After all you and I, of opposite opinions can both express them freely without name calling, oops…I forgot you were calling folks with whom you disagree IDIOTS and IGNORANT ..not very adult like.


webcelt
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 3:57 pm

Or is it a matter of they have the facts, but you have your opinions, and you prefer those? You don't have any facts, just nonsensical assertions. You seem unable to tell apart naivete, ignorance, treason, fact, and opinion. Or do you believe that opinion is fact if it agrees with you?


BUJ
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 4:09 pm

Frankly, I feel sorry for Dick Cheney. What must it be like to be so frightened and paranoid all the time? I'm sure all that Halliburton money helps, but I'm just sayin'.


kath5292
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 4:11 pm

Thanks webcelt.Well said.


AceAceBaby
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 4:31 pm

That's right! Because we are a country of laws! Except, well, when those laws would apply to us. Because we're above the law! But nobody else is! And if they try to be, then we'll invade them! Because we are a country of laws!


k hood
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 4:38 pm

If we allow Cheney to claim innocence of any crime based on the supposed gain from said crime then we will become far worse than any enemy we have ever thought we were fighting.


kevinschmidt
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 4:56 pm

Prosecuting war criminals within the CIA will not neuter effective national security, as Gammy incorrectly states. Protecting and defending the Constitution will only strengthen national security.

U.S. law specifically states that not prosecuting war crimes is itself a war crime. Until dick Cheney, Halliburton, Xe, the torturers, and the rest of his evil minions are prosecuted, Obama and Holder are indeed war criminals.

Being a war criminal does not necessarily make one a traitor. However, supporting and voting repeatedly for unconstitutional laws like the FISA revision, the U.S. Military Commissions Act and the U.S. Patriot Act does make a member of Congress and the president a traitor.

Criticizing the government, especially during a time of war profiteering war, is never treasonous. Please read the Constitution and stop listening to rabid right talking heads like Ann Coulter.


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Pingback posted August 25, 2009 @ 6:02 pm

[...] a close reading of the two documents themselves and finds little corroboration for Cheney: “Strikingly, [the C.I.A. reports] provide little evidence for Cheney’s claims that the ‘enhanced interrogation’ program run by the CIA provided [...]


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Pingback posted August 25, 2009 @ 6:28 pm

[...] as Spencer Ackerman of the Washington Independent shows, most of the evidence suggests they came through traditional interrogation techniques. As Spencer [...]


Patrick
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 5:38 pm

GammySparkles is so stuck with the ideals of the Bush administration. Bush & Cheney did nothing but spread fear and use our military for their own fodder. The Iraq war was based on lies and had nothing to do with 9/11 (an event that could have been avoided if Bush & Rice were really paying attention!). What they are doing in Scottland has nothing to dow with our country. I guess there are still plenty of folks out there with their heads up their asses and still loyal to Cheney & Co. Every time I see a picture of Cheney I cringe! He looks so evil and does not look like a good person. What Cheney & Bush did was NOT protecting our nation>>>they were protecting their asses and making our country less safe in actuality. Republicans are not disguising themselves as Independents, so beware of the “Independent” movement.


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Pingback posted August 25, 2009 @ 6:59 pm

[...] Sargent looks at coverage of Cheney claims. More: Ben, Spencer. [...]


GammySparkles
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 7:07 pm

There is one person for sure with the head up their proverbial backside, YOU!


GammySparkles
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 7:14 pm

All the comments show me the leanings of most of the postings. Sadly, as strongly you are against my view, you are misguided. We were attacked, repeatedly over a few decades. No one did anything to stop it, especially not Clinton or Panetta. Then In comes Bush, and literally inheritted 9/11. He makes every attempt to protect this nation. The liberal left gripe. Imagine, how many patriotic folks have died to protect even the sick ramblings of the liberal left who would just as soon give this country to anyone. They do that by not understanding the rantings of the communists, socialists, marxists, etc. infiltrating our very country, systems, schools. I see no one minds a known murderer, bomber, terrorist in America being made a hero and allowed to teach their children, but complain about the VP trying to protect us. I am of course, referring to William Ayers. Or countless others who have allegiance to many other groups and nations who would gladly see us destroyed! I stand by my freedom of speech!


michael001
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 7:19 pm

Dear Granny,

Loyalty to one's political party above one's country is what gave the world HItler.
Sometimes the folks you choose to believe in are actual crooks (Nixon) and it takes GUTS to look at the FACTS and make an HONEST assesment of the possibility that you have been duped, lied to , bullshi**ed by someone who really could care less about you or your family but really needs your money to pay for the checks they wrote but never had a plan to pay for.

It's OK if you believe the Bush and Cheney are GODS, but all those dead soldiers in the middle east may well disagree with you.


Progressive Nation » Blog Archive » GOP Memo on Torture: It’s laughable, but not surprising
Pingback posted August 25, 2009 @ 8:29 pm

[...] not just for­mer Vice Pres­i­dent Dick Cheney who mis­rep­re­sented what the CIA inspec­tor general’s report says about the effec­tive­ness of…. Michael Gold­farb at the Weekly Stan­dard reports on a “GOP memo” he says is being [...]


stiller
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 8:02 pm

This is excellent use of satire! Way to make fun of these silly paranoid conservatives! Well done!


deanleong
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 8:07 pm

Former Vice President is just trying to cover his own ass from what went on during the interrogations , but then again don't know what happened , but what I have read in the reportrs that is being publish , who do you believe and what do you believe , just looking at the whole thing , I do believe that the past administration is trying to cover up the wrong doing in the process of interrogation , possibly might be criminal wrong doings , it will all come out if the former Vive President justs stay out of it .


deanleong
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 8:16 pm

First of all the attack on 9/11 took place under the watchful? watch of the Bush Administrtion , it is not the faulf of the Clinton White House , so please get your information right Gammy , stop blamng the democrats for the short comings of the Bush Regime , yes the attack took place , but in order for them to get the Congress to say yes to War with Iraq was to just lie , we have lost a great deal of our young men and women , so please stop the blame and let us to do the best to work the solution , whatever that is , this blame game is just plain stupid , now watch what will happen the Republicans are going to blame the Democrats for the war left by Bush.


putzpal
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 8:21 pm

HAVE MIXED emotions bout this stuff…FINALLY GOV,etc.gonna do wha gotta or think can do..NORMALLY ones detained NOT US citizens..I KNOW THAT can be a slipperyslope…OUR BIZ $ %s HAVE done 'stuff' over THERE n (here) THAT HAS led to welllllllll ANYWAYS….SAD some poo innocent whtuevers paid w/lives for *$*@ done by others thou SOME OF EM PAID ULTIMATE price tooooo….. THINK boout THIS…FACED off n down USSR n ALLllllllllllllllllllllllllllll THATttttttttt only to get *$*@*C by some *$* who got semi lucky, find some weak links,etc.n did the deed….Mez wunder IF maybbeee DOORWAY TO *$*@ U know WHO thou THEY, Ira*nians certainly TEND to….SUSPECT w/THEM cross tween gamemanship n other…if dont *$*@ themselves silly w/TheToy then THEY are STUCK w/this pricey DANGEROUS own little gadget nearly SAME WAY WE are….


honor469
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 8:24 pm

Grammy Sparkles, sorry to say, the Weather Underground movement only killed 4 people and none were directly attributed to Ayers himself. Frankly, the idea that we undercut our own postition by proposing that it is a just and ethical thing to torture (when we decry it) is a betrayal of my comrades and my sacrifices. Cheney and Bush have blood on their hands and no matter what they do, they can't wash it off.


GammySparkles
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 8:27 pm

Go back to the rotten rock you climbed out from under. Enough of this mess!


GammySparkles
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 8:33 pm

First of all, the attack on 9/11 was planed and prepared for years and years before Bush even took office. They came to America, learned to fly, got driver licenses, voting permits, everything that should be much harder to obtain. All during the busy years of the Democratic 8-year term President. Oh, the one obsessed with blue dresses I believe, along with his cronies, like Panetta, Holder, and others, who are now, once again in the White House. Wow, isn't that reassuring. Bush, did not cause it, and did everything he could to protect us. If you all don't see it, then you all are just spammers who are here to disrupt further our great nation, and maybe you are not even citizens. Lots of bloggers are either hired by the Dem. party, or actually here to do nothing but mess us up. Thanks, but no thanks, you keep your kool aid.


sinamun6
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 9:03 pm

Doesn't it kind of make us look stupid to publically call out the CIA? I mean it just seems like it makes us look like we don't know what were doing. We argue within ourselves instead of having a united front. I don't mean to say we should bury our heads in the sand when political figures or agencies do something wrong; but we should learn to save face a little. Otherwise we're viewed as incompetent idiots.
Republicans and/or Democrats are not going to be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the CIA's tactics were 100% effective. One report showing now will say one thing and in a couple of weeks there will be another contradicting it.
We need to stop going against the grain and be united as Americans and embrase all of our past warts and all. If the CIA made mistakes fix them and move on. Quit the finger pointing already.


MONDAY MUSINGS » Argue With My Dad
Pingback posted August 25, 2009 @ 10:10 pm

[...] is talking out of his back side.  As you will see in this Washington Independent article,  http://washingtonindependent.com/56344/cia-documents-provide-little-cover-for-cheney-claims, Cheney’s claims are not proven by the release of these documents. “Strikingly, they [...]


deanleong
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 9:43 pm

Well you must be reading all the conservative information about this matter , you may be right about he planning , but they performed their deadly act on Bushes watch , if he wasn't aware of that then he must have had his head up his ass , and by the way I am a republican , not a very happy one either , why are blaming , people wanna blame each and for what , absolutely nothing , so Gammy or Grandma just maybe you should start getting your information from all sides , and also wanna add , that I fought for my country in Iraq , I lost both of my legs and I am in a wheel chair , so if you wanna argue about who is the blame , lets do it . I mean all you haters of opposing parties want to blame everybody else , and you don't really have the correct information ,. I was once told that the most dangerous person walking on earth is a person that is misinformed .


GammySparkles
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 10:34 pm

Thank you for your service. Words don't suffice often. But, I cannot change my stand, for that would be saying what you did was in vane. I am reading Common Sense by Glenn Beck, and contrary to what people say about him, I believe it.
Having come from the extreme left in my youth – (no nukers) (Envirnomentalists) et al, I have taken a lifetime to reach my liberal conservative status. No apologies.
I am not a hater of anything. The language on these posts, show more hate than I ever have in my videos for 3 years now. Also, read Fleeced by Dick Morris. Remember He worked for Bill Clinton. And I also find Lou Dobbs has some real good points and both he and Beck are Independents or Libertarians. Not Rep. or Dem. Many Dems are Progressives(look that one up) That is a real clincher.
My step dad had polio when he was young, and became one of the best Canvas Men on the East Coast in his time(retired now) He had a huge disability, but it never got him to stop. We just had a great grandchild with D. S. Life sure hits us all! But, I cannot change my beliefs or ideals for the liberal left. Too many diverse views bouncing into us. I truly, believe, in my total heart, that our national security is not only compromised, it is critical. I believe we need more, not less.
Just my views. The media is mostly owned by very liberal leaning wealthy folks. They do not give us most of the real news. I don't think the conservative side is perfect either, but I chose to ride with those basic principals, because they beat the heck out of the liberal side!


Jim
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 11:48 pm

“I see no one minds a known murderer, bomber, terrorist in America being made a hero….”

I assume you are talking about Orlando Bosch and Luis Posada Carriles, who in October 1976 bombed a Cuban airliner out of the sky, killing all 73 aboard, including several children. Bosch and Carriles still walk free on the streets of Miami, and are considered “heroes” by the local Cubans who still wax nostalgic for Batista.

That is who you meant, right?


GammySparkles
Comment posted August 25, 2009 @ 11:59 pm

Actually no, I am not too familiar with that, but if they did, they should not be out and about.
I was referring to the trade towers, both 9/11 and the earlier ones, and the guy that got out in Scottland. And like even the Manson killers. Maybe we must forgive, but I would not want to let these folks out. That is why they got the sentences they got. Life in prison for killing that many people. But, you see, I do not favor closing GTMO until a real plan is in place. Further, I believe, that they should be handled, tried, etc. by the military, not civilian courts. Too much sensitive data, and further, we did declare war on the terrorists! Do I believe that there are mishaps and bad soldiers, etc. once in a while. But there are people all over the world that do wrong, but it does not paint the mass of soldiers and troops as bad. The media uses isolated cases, to bash them. it just absolutely upsets me, or as I say in my rants, It just Chaffs my Britches!


Tactical Bacon and More at ryptide.com
Pingback posted August 26, 2009 @ 1:09 am

[...] other quickies, Cheney is still a lying liar. Every time the man opens his mouth he admits to war crimes… yet he’s a free man. [...]


Jim
Comment posted August 26, 2009 @ 12:12 am

“Bush, did not cause it, and did everything he could to protect us…”

You mean, like when he got a Presidential Daily Briefing 36 days before the attacks headlining “Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US”, and continues, “Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York,” at a time when according to the 9/11 Commission Report, “The System Was Blinking Red,” Bush…. went golfing? 'Cause, y'know, “no one could have predicted” that one.

You are entitled to your own opinions, GammySparkles. You are not entitled to your own facts.


Jim
Comment posted August 26, 2009 @ 12:19 am

Google their names. Check the Wikipedia entries. There's a ton of information out there. It's just a fact that while Bush was saying that any country harboring terrorists would face the wrath of the United States, the United States, in fact the State governed by his brother Jeb, was harboring two terrorists who bombed a Cuban airliner out of the sky and managed to evade justice for 30 years and counting.


pete_b
Comment posted August 26, 2009 @ 3:27 am

No – what makes “us” look stupid is doing stupid things to begin with. For example, detaining a bunch of people who had nothing to do with AQ, then torturing them just in case.


Reality, Sir, Does Not Match Your Comments « No Time for Trivia
Pingback posted August 26, 2009 @ 4:42 am

[...] CIA Documents Provide Little Cover For Cheney Claims Documents Fail To Exonerate ‘Enhanced Interrogation’ Techniques [...]


markaleshnick
Comment posted August 26, 2009 @ 9:06 am

The whitewash continues — when You looked into Bush'es eyes, You could see an unrepentant liar, and someone who knew NOTHING of what he he spoke.

obama looks as if he is sincere, but he belongs in the docket, along with the past motley crew, for crimes against humanity.

Waterboard them all.

Remember Rachel corrie (May She r.i.p), and boycott ALL american and israeli products.

F*ck them ALL

mark aleshnick (NOT a self hating Jew, , but born Jew3sh, and a man of conscience and a sense of morality.


markaleshnick
Comment posted August 26, 2009 @ 9:21 am

Jewis3sh = jewish


Cheney: still unhinged « Later On
Pingback posted August 26, 2009 @ 2:12 pm

[...] enhanced interrogation program. As people like Spencer Ackerman noted, those documents didn’t end up showing that at all, however: Strikingly, they provide little evidence for Cheney’s claims that the “enhanced [...]


August 26, 2009 « Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?
Pingback posted August 26, 2009 @ 4:33 pm

[...] 3.  “CIA Documents Provide Little Cover for Cheney Claims“ [...]


pjburke
Comment posted August 26, 2009 @ 4:42 pm

Pulling no punches for ignorant twaddle and gibberish, your comment is emblematic of just the sort of mushy, emotional unreason which makes us all less 'safe.' Such nonsense enables all of the war-mongering Republican sadists, psychopaths, and criminals profiteering from carnage to launch their illegal wars, commit mass-murder for profit, and keep people like you cheering for more blood and mayhem.

The 'patriotic folks' you refer to — soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines — are just convenient props to Republicans… that is, when they're not being wasted, squandered, thrown away like toilet paper after the chickenhawk Deserter-in-Chief wipes his backside with the notices of their deaths. Notice that neither he nor Cheney ever attended even one fallen soldier's funeral.

And you have the unmitigated gall to speak of “sick ramblings of the liberal left,” when most of the enlisted people who do the fighting and dying for this country happen to come from, and support, the “liberal left.” Indeed, military service-members supported Obama 6-to-1 over McCain. Every single retired service member who ran for Congress in 2006 and 2008 ran as a Democrat. We veterans know who supports us, and who only uses us.

As offensive as the lead-up to your worst comment is — and it is grossly offensive — your worst comment… this bleating, flatulent idiocy really takes the proverbial cake:

“I see no one minds a known murderer, bomber, terrorist in America being made a hero and allowed to teach their children, but complain about the VP trying to protect us.”

Fact-deprived and substance-free balderdash. You people just make things up to suit your lying needs at the time, without shame or apology, and to hell with what the actual truth — about anything — is. The FBI did not charge that guy with anything. You have no right to just make things up. What a twisted, sick person you are for doing that.

The real 'known murderer, bomber, terrorist in America' is the former VP — Chickenhawk Coward Cheney — who is responsible for mass-murder, torture, and numerous other war crimes… and you want to make HIM a hero, when he needs to face prosecution and a firing squad.


GammySparkles
Comment posted August 26, 2009 @ 5:16 pm

Take 2 tums and you will feel better. I have a right to believe what I believe and say just as you do. It is a known fact that Ayers not only did the things he did, he wrote about them, and made no apologies for them. Since I have come from the far liberal left to a liberal conservative place, I have seen an awful lot of life. We obviously just do not agree! and based on your verbage, we probably will not.
Have a great Day!


ManOnDog
Comment posted August 26, 2009 @ 7:02 pm

If the CIA did something illegal then it should be investigated. This 'move on for the sake of a united front' line is bullshit. 'Fixing it' involves investigating it, exposing the wrong doing, and making sure it doesn't happen again. NOT doing anything is burying our heads. What, does it 'make us less safe' to look into these allegations? Are we 'opening ourselves up to attack' by doing so? We're open to attack anyway, face it bub.


Report reveals Cheney misled about ‘trained interrogators’ | NWOTruth
Pingback posted August 26, 2009 @ 9:09 pm

[...] the Washington Independent, Spencer Ackerman points out that newly revealed documents “actually suggest the opposite of Cheney’s contention: [...]


Townsend Admits CIA Documents Don’t Back Up Cheney’s Claims About Torture : Dailycensored.com
Pingback posted August 26, 2009 @ 10:00 pm

[...] enhanced interrogation program. As people like Spencer Ackerman noted, those documents didn’t end up showing that at all, however: Strikingly, they provide little evidence for Cheney’s claims that the “enhanced [...]


SmartRemarks » Torture, shame, and people who lack it
Pingback posted August 27, 2009 @ 12:25 am

[...] superficially. As Spencer Ackerman of the Washington Independent has described, the IG report and other CIA documents Cheney cites do not actually support the claim that torture produced results. On the contrary, [...]


Arthur
Comment posted August 26, 2009 @ 11:32 pm

Grammy , are you aware of Norman Mineta's testimony before the 911 Commision ? The one where Cheney had prior knowledge of the hijacked plane approaching the Pentagon ? Cheney , according to Mineta , gave orders of some type which suggests he was complicit in the deaths of Americans ( check on youtube.com for Mineta's testimony ). This and other facts should be addressed – for treason seems to have been involved .


visibility911.com » Blog Archive » Report Reveals Dick Cheney Lied About “Trained Interrogators” and Misrepresented Torture Program
Pingback posted August 27, 2009 @ 1:07 am

[...] the Washington Independent, Spencer Ackerman points out that newly revealed documents “actually suggest the opposite of Cheney’s contention: that [...]


ps2os2
Comment posted August 27, 2009 @ 1:05 am

It certainly is interesting that this is not being carried by any of the major papers. I wonder why?


refluxchemist
Comment posted August 27, 2009 @ 2:02 am

We need to stop going against the grain of NOT following the constitution. The way you get beyond past mistakes is not by “quit pointing the finger”, its by prosecuting those who enacted illegal policies, to ensure that we CAN quit pointing the finger, knowing that we corrected our mistakes, not swept them under the rug.


Patrick
Comment posted August 27, 2009 @ 2:15 am

GammySparkles is such a Republican spin machine, but she does have the right to her own opinion (as I do too GS). Bush, Cheney, Rice, & company are the 9/11 murderers! They ignored the data that was available to them 1 month prior to the event and President Clinton offered to discuss it, but Bush & Co. said they had it under control. Then they created an illegal war in Iraq to avenge a job his daddy did not finish (getting rid of Sadam). When you have 2 oil men running a country you get nothing but corruption and the good ole boy network. I respect your opinions GS but the sick ramblings you are referring to are the ones the public had to put up with during the 8 horrific years of Bush. You say that you come from a left leaning liberal background and have a different point of view now>>>can't someone like Ayers have done the same turnaround as you? Or, are you the only one who have changed your opinion as time goes by? Cheney should be tried for war crimes and his ass needs to be in prison! He is one of the slimiest politicians ever. W is not exactly credible himself. Let's put both of them in one of their secret torture chambers and beat the shit out of them>>maybe the truth will come out. Face it>>the Conservative, Christian, Gun Toting, Bible Toting, Republican movement is in trouble and losing control of the USA. You just can't take it. I took it during the Reagan years (another really bad president) and during Bush Sr and W. Sit back Gammy and drink a beer in your trailer and chill out!!


Patrick
Comment posted August 27, 2009 @ 2:19 am

Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly, and Sean Hannity are total WHACK JOBS!!!


Patrick
Comment posted August 27, 2009 @ 2:24 am

You can't take it Gammy. Bush/Cheney are responsible for almost 4,000 Americans on their own soil, thousands of dead soldiers, thousands & thousands of injured vets getting no support (thanks W), and hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis.


sinamun6
Comment posted August 27, 2009 @ 6:02 am

I'm not saying to sweep anything under the rug. But they are talking about prosecuting the CIA agents. That's a step beyond investigating don't you think? If there was wrong doing, then it needs to be corrected and procedure needs to be changed. It all seems more politically movitated than anything else and I believe that doesn't benefit anyone. The job that they do in the CIA is imparative. We are very fortunate in the United States because we are protected. True it does not give anyone license to do whatever they want but I don't buy into the concept that they took people at random and tortured them “just in case”. If they picked them up, they had ties to people they shouldn't have. I'm all for keeping the peace and all that, but this is how peace is kept. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not.


Townsend Admits CIA Documents Don’t Back Up Cheney’s Claims About Torture | Pure Politics
Pingback posted August 27, 2009 @ 9:00 am

[...] enhanced interrogation program. As people like Spencer Ackerman noted, those documents didn’t end up showing that at all, however: Strikingly, they provide little evidence for Cheney’s claims that the “enhanced [...]


spinology « inkbluesky
Pingback posted August 27, 2009 @ 9:38 am

[...] that prove torture was absolutely nesccary in order to save lives has not worked out so well, CIA Documents Provide Little Cover for Cheney Claims. Neither has Bernie Goldberg’s claim that George W. Bush served honorably in the TANG, [...]


Apple of Doubt » Blog Archive » On Torture
Pingback posted August 27, 2009 @ 10:32 am

[...] plots. Not only has torture never been an effective source of intelligence but his claims are not vindicated by the facts. Torture does produce confessions, just ask worked on John McCain who, after having been tortured, [...]


Raw Story » Report reveals Cheney misled about ‘trained interrogators’ | Blake's Blog
Pingback posted August 27, 2009 @ 1:17 pm

[...] the Washington Independent, Spencer Ackerman points out that newly revealed documents “actually suggest the opposite of Cheney’s contention: that [...]


71559
Comment posted August 27, 2009 @ 6:44 pm

Im glad they did what they needed to do to get any information to help american interests. These animals are Terroists.
Terroists are individuals or a group of indivduals who use violence or threats of violence to affect national or international policy or to gain material or spiritual wealth. Most modern terrorist organizations operate in a loose knit collection of “cells” each one of these cells has a connection to one or more of the other cells but no cell has direct connections to all the others. This allows the organization to keep up operations if one or more of these cells are taken out. It is this felexible and rather “unorganized” method of operation that makes terrorists so difficult to stop. Usually major terrorist organizations are funded by a wealthy idealist (whose views are in line with the goals the organization wishes to achieve). This idealist however will not usually (with some notable exceptions) participate directly in the terrorist activites himself, except in the most dire of circumstances. Records will usually be well concealed so that all monies going to terrorist causes appear legit.

Individual (or lone) terrorists are usually easily caught, it is by working as a loose knit group that terrorists are able to achieve their goals. Most materials used in the making of explosives are well tracked by government agencies and any person buying all the components themselves are surley to be singled out for investigation, by having diffirent cell members purchase (or merely bring into the country), several components (each benign by themselves), the terrorist organization can build weapons with relatively little scrutiny. This is just one example of how the “cell” organization is effective.

Lets do what we have to do – you already know they will.


71559
Comment posted August 27, 2009 @ 6:57 pm

Go Gammy Sparkles! Good job, these liberal left folks defend those who gladly will kill them at a drop of a hat (maybe by decapitation) if they had the chance. Oh yea they might get tortured first.


1 Boring Old Man » Hannity’s Special
Pingback posted August 27, 2009 @ 8:40 pm

[...] on Thursday 27 August 2009 CIA Documents Provide Little Cover for Cheney ClaimsDocuments Fail to Exonerate ‘Enhanced Interrogation’ TechniquesWashington Independent [...]


Chris M.
Comment posted August 27, 2009 @ 10:02 pm

Sure, you have a right to believe and say whatever you like. What you don't have a right to is anyone else taking you seriously when your “ramblings” are so detached from reality.

Others have addressed what Ayers actually did and didn't do, FWIW, which isn't much where the topic of official torture policies is concerned. I'll just focus in on a couple aspects of your initial post, to wit:

“the liberal left who would just as soon give this country to anyone…”

and

“…the communists, socialists, marxists, etc. infiltrating our very country, systems, schools.”

C'mon, seriously. Paranoid much? Have you been mainlining old Joe McCarthy videos?


GammySparkles
Comment posted August 27, 2009 @ 10:38 pm

I am dead serious. And so are an ever-increasing number of folks, who can see into the deeper parts of things. If you don't yourself think, believe, or have not heard of people here to just create spam, blog us for their own gain, and oh Heck, you could be one of them. No I am not paranoid. I KNOW!


Patrick
Comment posted August 27, 2009 @ 11:36 pm

Thanks for the terrorist lesson. You are of course referring to Bush & Cheney when you talk about “wealthy idealist”, right? It fits both of these monsters profile perfectly!


Chris M.
Comment posted August 27, 2009 @ 11:47 pm

No, you're not paranoid.

But I could be “one of them”! (Oooh!)

At first I thought you might actually be posting as a parody of right-wing paralogia. At this point I'm fairly convinced you're serious. So let me ask you: what do you even MEAN by saying people want to “give this country” away? How? To whom?

And for that matter, what do you mean by “socialists”? Lots of people on the right apply the term to our allies in Europe these days, for instance. Why on earth would they be trying to “infiltrate” us?

Moreover, what about home-grown Americans who you would consider “socialist” (a group that no doubt includes several posters here)? Are any ideas you apply that label to automatically dismissed without even the pretense of substantive debate? Are the people who hold them not worthy of participation in the American political process?

See, what I'm saying is, you're voicing inchoate fears which, if you follow their logic out to its conclusion, don't add up to anything at all.

What's more, none of this has Thing One to do with the actual topic of this piece, which is violations of law, treaties, and the Constitution by members of the Bush administration, and potential investigations and prosecutions thereof. Are you among those who think we can't be “kept safe” unless we allow those in power to break laws at their discretion?


71559
Comment posted August 28, 2009 @ 11:48 am

How can you call these guys monsters. What have you been taught through out your life that has turned you against your own. The very people that provide the freedom you have and the right to express yourself or say what you want when you want. If these guys are monsters, What is sadam & bin laden? Im sure these two will give you the same rights.LOL. Call them monsters they will have your head on a plate. Did you forget 9/11? . I think you did. What would you call them? Take Care


71559
Comment posted August 28, 2009 @ 11:55 am

I would like to know who investgatig these terrorist when they do wrong. Oh yea nobody. Unless they failed on thier mission. CIA should have free reign on these animals.


71559
Comment posted August 28, 2009 @ 11:59 am

Good name putz


71559
Comment posted August 28, 2009 @ 12:29 pm

Who governs the laws of those who are out to terrorize this country. Whats thier consttution, Oh yea death to America, If you dont think that this country is constantly being probed to create another 911 maybe your in a dream bubble. Information is what we need how they get it from some terrorist or terrorist sympathizer I really dont care. I say get the info and make them dissappear. I would never need to worrry about them going back to thier terrorist cell group or what prison to put them in. ILL make you feel better we wont cut thier head off and put it on tape for the world to see. Are you a terrorist Sympathizer? HMMM Hope not. Take care


Patrick
Comment posted August 28, 2009 @ 9:32 pm

Bush, Cheney, & Rice could have stopped 9/11 but allowed it to happen so Bush could have something to base a presidency on. Bush was a clueless idiot who got in over his head. He is the killer of Americans on our own soil. I have never forgotten 9/11 or who is responsible for it (Bush).


Chris M.
Comment posted August 29, 2009 @ 6:21 am

To the enigmatic and inarticulate #71559-

The United States has been threatened before, and no doubt will be threatened again… in both cases, in ways much more serious than any threat posed by loosely affiliated terrorist cells. The fact that a few people chant “death to America” doesn't mean they have any means within their reach to achieve that end. To imagine otherwise is (sense a trend here?) paranoid thinking.

The point remains, it's not about their standards… it's about *ours*. We don't let our enemies, real or imagined, lower the bar on the principles we consider essential, the conduct we consider acceptable, the human rights we consider inalienable. There will always be threats… but no amount of “information” about them is worth sacrificing what we stand for.

And to suggest that we should outright “disappear” people?… (what a sickening euphemism!)… well, that's just absolutely beyond the pale. It's unconscionable. And yet you openly say you “don't care”?

You clearly neither understand nor appreciate due process of law. It's attitudes like *that* that are more likely than anything else to bring “death to America”… no matter how long our nation continues to exist in name.


Paul Slansky: This Preposterous Week In Review
Pingback posted August 29, 2009 @ 2:18 pm

[...] Dick • claims by that the release of CIA documents would prove that the Bush Administration’s enhanced interrogation techniques worked are, unsurprisingly, not borne out by release of said documents • Obama is accused by of — [...]


Eyepublius
Comment posted August 30, 2009 @ 1:46 am

I have posted about this extensively at my torture blog – check it out and give me some feed back – thanks.

Halfway Pundit Torture Library

~ dan francis


Alan Colmes’ Liberaland » Cheney Continues “Save My Legacy Tour”
Pingback posted August 30, 2009 @ 11:00 am

[...] And the report released by the CIA because of the ACLU lawsuit proves Cheney’s claims wrong, as was detailed in the Washington Independent. [...]


Swami_Binkinanda
Comment posted August 30, 2009 @ 6:18 pm

Funny, if you accurately present what Cheney and Bush enacted as policy you find that morally there is no difference between the GOP and Al Quaida. A bunch of fat, lazy wealthy people (Saudis or American CEOs) fund atrocities (9/11 or the establishment of death camps) that will scar both the perpetrators and the victims forever (Islamic states or the Western democracies). The fact is that Bush and Cheney decided early that America needed the same warped judicial system they have in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan-Bush said words to the effect that “Dictatorship is okay as long as I'm the dictator” several times in public on the record. Cheney in particular is a degenerate liar and sociopath, and Bush I suspect is a victim of inbreeding, of Wasp Rot, and wouldn't be competent to stand trial.
9/11=Reichstag Fire regardless of whoever actually performed the horrible act. There is enough CIA involvement to make me think that I've witnessed the second or third American coup of my lifetime-Nixon, Carter, and Gore. The Kennedys were before my time but involved the same people-mobster businessmen and bizarre right wing perverts who enjoy the sadomasochistic lifestyle but resent the concept of safety words or consent. Cheney=Hannibal Lecter.


Swami_Binkinanda
Comment posted August 30, 2009 @ 6:20 pm

So you are a limp wristed soft on crime liberal? How sad that you reject the value of equal protection under the law and the concepts of justice and accountability.


Swami_Binkinanda
Comment posted August 30, 2009 @ 6:21 pm

You must have missed a lot of news, including a trillion dollars spent to ensure we get the oil in the Middle East, oh wait, I mean to pursue and fail to capture Bin Laden for 8 years. Do you have Halliburton stock or what?


Swami_Binkinanda
Comment posted August 30, 2009 @ 6:22 pm

Perhaps you might view the movie “Judgement at Nuremberg?” Or is “Triumph of the Will” more your speed?


Swami_Binkinanda
Comment posted August 30, 2009 @ 6:29 pm

The truth is hard to take and you seem to have a lot invested in avoiding it-sworn testimony, declassified evidence. I find it hard to rectify the “Gammy Sparkles” image with consent to torture, murder, and lawlessness, but perhaps you truly are endorsing the kind of sickness Charles Manson never thought of-using the democratic government of the greatest nation on earth to become a tyrannical torture regime no different from our worst enemies.


GammySparkles
Comment posted August 30, 2009 @ 8:04 pm

Om to you too! You are overstating and blowing up out of proportion what I have said or meant! Let me try to reexplain! I believe it is in our national security interest to keep the CIA documents in the hands of the military and our top classified officials. I don't condone extreme torture. I have no problem with the waterboarding that happened with doctors present in the event, IN THE EVENT, THOUSANDS OR MILLIONS OF LIVES COULD BE AT STAKE. I do not consider it extreme torture. On the other hand, if our administration wants to outlaw it all together, that is a decision they make. My problem is that whatever was done when it was done, was done so with protecting our lives. And everyone is so Hell Bent on making us look bad, they will do anything, grandstand, and twist out of proportion what and why. And further, it will not protect us or your freedoms to be here and rant, if our nation does not survive! This administration is just using this to grandstand further, is inexperienced, naive, and blatantly partisan, and way too too radical for my taste, not to mention irresponsible!


Irish_Wake
Comment posted August 30, 2009 @ 10:55 pm

Ma'am, I would like to apologize for the rabid attacks of your opinions. However, you state proclaim your opinions as proven facts. You do not have the luxury to 'consider (waterboarding) extreme torture, and the current administration does not have the ability to outlaw this behavior. The United States of America has stated that waterboarding is torture; your country has executed people in your name for these actions. This is a fact. The Geneva Conventions and other treaties ratified by Congress affirm torture (or even 'degrading acts') as illegal. By reviewing these facts, it is not those that wish for these acts to stop that make us look bad, but those that condone this behavior, or worse, want it covered up. The Constitution does not guarantee our security. It addresses our rights.

These acts were not just perpetrated upon foreigners – American citizens were spied upon and detained without warrant or writ. Indeed, American citizens may have been tortured. Actions such as these cannot protect my freedom. No actions such as these can safeguard my life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness. No American's rights may be defended by depriving innocent people of their rights. Or those that are guilty.


Cheney Endorses CIA Interrogators Going ‘Beyond The Specific Legal Authorization’ | Pure Politics
Pingback posted August 31, 2009 @ 1:15 am

[...] have no evidence linking torture to valuable intelligence. In fact, these memos show that “non-abusive techniques actually helped elicit some of the most important [...]


71559
Comment posted August 31, 2009 @ 11:56 am

The oil in the middle east, your are right ! We took so much oil we are paying the lowest gas prices ever. Who has missed the news. Common stop these lies, oh excuse me (miss information ) that your spreading. There are lies in both parties or politics in general. So sad it is.

Tell me how you feel about the terrorist that killed over 3000 Americans ?

How do you feel about the sailors that were killed in Yemen?

Please answer the question ,no miss direction type of response. Take Care
I dont gamble with stocks by the way.


71559
Comment posted August 31, 2009 @ 12:01 pm

Dont listen to this person he is not of this country. He is a fanatic muslim.


Great, We Are Still Having the ‘But Did Torture Work’ Debate [Proving A Negative] | Newstion.com
Pingback posted August 31, 2009 @ 1:02 pm

[...] that will prove that torture worked get released. And once those documents are released and they just muddy the issue even further by saying over and over again that is impossible to know what interrogation techniques produced [...]


Anonymous
Comment posted August 31, 2009 @ 11:23 pm

Will our nation survive if it is willing to reject everything it stands for? Are we America anymore when we murder people without trial, hold American citizens in dungeons for years without legal representation or trial? Where we refuse to hold our government accountable for its actions? I would submit that we are not who we thought we were if this is the case. We are substantially less of a nation than we pretend to be if we throw out our Constitution.

Ever read the part of the Declaration of Independence where we list the things we don’t like about England? ushistory dot org


Anonymous
Comment posted August 31, 2009 @ 11:23 pm

Will our nation survive if it is willing to reject everything it stands for? Are we America anymore when we murder people without trial, hold American citizens in dungeons for years without legal representation or trial? Where we refuse to hold our government accountable for its actions? I would submit that we are not who we thought we were if this is the case. We are substantially less of a nation than we pretend to be if we throw out our Constitution.

Ever read the part of the Declaration of Independence where we list the things we don’t like about England? ushistory dot org


Seven Points about Dick Cheney and Torture « COTO Report
Pingback posted August 31, 2009 @ 7:32 pm

[...] the documents cite in defending the value of the CIA’s interrogations,” as Spencer Ackerman observed in the Washington [...]


hma
Comment posted August 31, 2009 @ 11:16 pm

I agree with interrogations of any means and fully support the CIA as well as our troops fighting for our safety/freedom. I am sure that the family members of all those who were killed on 9/11 appreciate the hard work our military and the CIA has done to bring these monsters to justice.


Swami_Binkinanda
Comment posted August 31, 2009 @ 11:16 pm

Lowest prices ever? over three dollars a gallon? Try gasbuddy dot com and remember how cheap gas was under Clinton.
How I feel about terrorists killing people? Not so bad that I would want a bunch of people lynched and tortured to make me feel better. Crimes are punished under laws; lawlessness begets lawlessness.
The Navy is responsible for the security of its personnel and ships-somebody clearly f*d up there.


GammySparkles
Comment posted September 1, 2009 @ 12:06 am

Amnesty International is another left wing group. Even Tom Ridge today said on ABC News that he felt the whole CIA docs was wrong. They should not have been released at all. And there is probably more proof to show the VP was right, but let's face it. The current administration will be sure to only release what it wants to serve its positions. Panetta, Holder are at should not be in any position to even comment. None of this serves this nations national security. Further, it should have been handled by the Pentagon and the agencies. If they really felt someone had done something wrong under the circumstances, they would have done that. But this is nothing but another grandstanding heist by the Democrats to cover up Nancy Pelosi and others who are hell bent on destroying what is left of our national security!


woonsocket
Comment posted September 1, 2009 @ 2:48 am

Even if it worked it's against the law.


woonsocket
Comment posted September 1, 2009 @ 2:52 am

Torture is against the law. I'd confess to anything before they hurt me. Whatever they want to hear. What would happen if you were given wrong information that an attack were going to happen in one city while it really was going to happen in another city?


woonsocket
Comment posted September 1, 2009 @ 3:00 am

I haven't seen Pelosi destroying anything. She was legally elected & the CIA lied to her & others. There was a “shadow govt.” with Bush/Cheney. Kinda reminds me of cold war Russia.


woonsocket
Comment posted September 1, 2009 @ 3:02 am

Civil countries don't torture but Bush/Cheney put an end to that – the “civil” part.


woonsocket
Comment posted September 1, 2009 @ 3:04 am

Does the CIA manual say that torture is legal? Torture is a crime – period.


woonsocket
Comment posted September 1, 2009 @ 3:17 am

The decades-long party with oil is over. When you force people into buying cars instead of giving transit as an option, you set yourselves up for failure. Even though I live in Canada my American family wishes that they could use transit but none exists. Please come visit us in Canada. See how we live. I live in a small city that has transit. I'm a senior & I never had to buy a car. We'd love to see you folks & you'd be amazed by how beautiful Canada is.


Torture and Lies: Confronting Cheney — 7 More Points to Note | Enduring America
Pingback posted September 1, 2009 @ 4:58 am

[...] the documents cite in defending the value of the CIA’s interrogations,” as Spencer Ackerman observed in the Washington [...]


Rebuking Cheney’s Torture Propaganda in 7 Easy Steps « Question Everything
Pingback posted September 1, 2009 @ 11:14 am

[...] the documents cite in defending the value of the CIA’s interrogations,” as Spencer Ackerman observed in the Washington [...]


GammySparkles
Comment posted September 1, 2009 @ 1:55 pm

No, the terrorists who bombed ships and people are responsible for their own actions. And when you attack a nation, it will attack back. That is so in most nations across the globe! You can om all you want, but our forces are charged with protecting us, and whatever was done, was deemed necessary. You don't see the North Vietnamese, chinese, russians, apologizing for arming the North vietcong, and then watching while they killed about 2 million of their own people, because the liberal media forced us out through political pressure?
Oh, that is a story no one wants to face. BULL!


Irish_Wake
Comment posted September 1, 2009 @ 4:51 pm

Sorry, hon. That's too much bile to see without cleaning up.
An organization that defends a single person against the full might of the State is not left wing. This is by definition the height of conservative ideals. The ACLU will defend anyone's constitutional rights.
I'm sorry Tom Ridge's feelings are hurt, but our ex VP Cheney said these CIA documents would exonerate Cheney. These documents were released, and answered nothing. I look at this, remember his campaign to invade Iraq, and I see a pattern of behavior: I want things to be a certain way, so trust me, I have evidence that I cannot let you see. But I am relieved to see that you agree with me, because as you state: “The current administration will be sure to only release what it wants to serve its positions.”
I really cannot understand why you suggest the Pentagon should be involved in the release of CIA documents. They are separate entities, neither may overrule the other. As for 'grandstanding heist', may I remind you the title of this post is “CIA Documents Provide Little Cover For Cheney Claims”. But you have repeatedly seen this scenario several times in the recent past, as have other people such as Colin Powell, as well as the legal team of Addington & Yew.


Inside the Frightening Mind of the WaPo’s Richard Cohen | Civil Liberties
Pingback posted September 1, 2009 @ 8:42 pm

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Give it up, Dick | Bilal Baloch - Politic News, Videos
Pingback posted September 1, 2009 @ 9:40 pm

[...] high-ranking Bush administration homeland security adviser, Frances Townsend, who admitted that the CIA reports did not prove torture was as effective as he [...]


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Comment posted September 2, 2009 @ 2:14 am

I just finished reading all the posts by Gammysparkle. By the time I had finished reading all her posts I was pretty fed up with “Gammy” the nazi loving nut job. I don’t know why folks bothered to respond to her rants. Her sentence structure was so poor I could hardly understand her messages. She referred to all other people as “they” “everybody” and continually used racist language in her responses to someone who continued to address her with respect -despite her taunts. I don’t know if she simply possesses poor language skills or really can not think logically.I don’t expect blogs to be written in perfect prose but I got the impression she was not using blog shorthand but rather that she writes the way she speaks and thinks. Perhaps English is her second language. She lives in a fearful world–all of her own making. I hope she rests in peace.


Swami_Binkinanda
Comment posted September 2, 2009 @ 12:52 am

So when they do it, it's bad, and when we do it back, it's not only good, it's awesome. Your history of the Vietnam conflict is a little shallow as well as being a distraction from the main point of the argument. As an aside, Ho Chi Minh tried to be on our side, but we were too busy sucking up to the French in the 1950s. The Vietnamese didn't particularly like the Chinese or the Russians-they wanted to be free like they thought we were.
I can't control the US Government or the terrorists or even the militias and Baptist enthusiasts down the street. But I do want my government to represent my values, and those values do not include torture, which is a perversion and a self-defeating strategy. Emerson, Nietszche, Joe Strummer-we become what we fear, we become the monster we hate. And you have apparently chosen to become a monster and aligned yourself with monstrousness.
Others have said vengeance belongs to the Lord, or to turn the other cheek when slapped. I'm not sure we can truly live up to that, but I see no reason to simply torture people because it satisfies the perverse desires of a pathetic, has-been vice president who never served in the military, was always shown to be wrong on policy, and in general has shown to have poor judgment at best.


Photomaniacal » Blog Archive » Give it up, Dick | Bilal Baloch
Pingback posted September 2, 2009 @ 4:15 am

[...] high-ranking Bush administration homeland security adviser, Frances Townsend, who admitted that the CIA reports did not prove torture was as effective as he [...]


Wonk Room » The Importance Of Investigating Torture
Pingback posted September 2, 2009 @ 2:41 pm

[...] was as necessary and effective as Cheney and his flunkies continue to claim — despite the absence of such evidence in the IG report — it seems that few would have more to gain from such an investigation into [...]


monkey99
Comment posted September 2, 2009 @ 6:14 pm

Cheney is a War Criminal. Period. This has NOTHING to do with Left Vs. Right, It is all about violations of the law, both domestic and international. Cheney HIMSELF is practically confessing to them RIGHT NOW! If not for the below statement, he would talk himself right into prison.

That we find it distasteful as a nation to prosecute a former Vice Pesident (of ANY party) is at the heart of it all.


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Comment posted September 8, 2009 @ 2:38 am

Why if it wasnt for CHENEY THINGS WOULD NOT BE THE SAME.. THOSE THUGS would have attack us again, Now OBAMA wants to kiss,bow,and meet his socialist firends like chevez,soros,acorn, sieu, Sadem, the torturer is gone, and we have caught a few terrorist coming to this country and obama wont know until its too late,right along with the american traders.


monkey99
Comment posted September 8, 2009 @ 6:37 pm

choctaw,

Cheney stepped all over the Constitution to do those things, with the help of Wolfowitz, John Yu, Rumsfeld and a host of others who saw the Constitution as nothing more than a speed bump to their dreams of……go ahead and say it, a fascist dictatorship.

“Saddam the Torturer”? The United States put him in power, to fight the Iranians! His sovereign state was invaded by us, overthrown by us, he was tried, convicted and executed because he flexed his soveriegnty at a group of men who think they own the world. They made more terrorists by doing that than anything the Dems can come up with.

If you're going to sling crap around, make sure you are out of the enclosure, first.


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Singapore is a safe place to live,probley more safe than america they dont believe in too much bull,You get caned for a miner thing,remember the kid that scratched some nice cars,The laws are stricked for a reason to keep their singapore people in line and clean,you cant put chewing gum on any thing but the trash.If we had some of these laws we would probley have less murders in this country, the tax payer wins. Quit whining about what the terrorist did they killed,and we needed advice to be more safe. These terrorist and obama,and the american traders,dont give a damn,about this country.


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Comment posted October 20, 2009 @ 3:46 pm

In Japan, leaders accept responsibility for the consequences of their actions. In America, leaders (whether individuals, such a Cheney, or institutions, such as AIG and Citicorp) lie, scapegoat others or scramble for cover ( a bailout or scam). Cheney is simply a fine American embracing a long established American tradition.


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Major Media Outlets Ignore News That CIA Documents Fail To Back-Up Cheney’s Torture Claims | No Bull. news service.
Pingback posted November 26, 2009 @ 8:04 am

[...] memos from 2004 and 2005, which had been secret until now. As Spencer Ackerman notes, these memos do nothing to back up Cheney’s claims: Strikingly, they provide little evidence for Cheney’s claims that the “enhanced [...]


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Cheney was wrong!!  Enhanced torture did not play a role in the finding and ultimately quick demise of Bin Laden.  John McCain (former P.O.W) stated that info on Ben Laden’s whereabout was received from a person outside of this country (no, not Cuba).  Our president has many prayers and support of  secret agents to find and punish anyone in the world.  Apparently, his enemies (even in Washington) fail to understand the “DAVID AND GOLIATH” principle.   


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