Joseph Farah: Birth Certificate Theories Are ‘Popular Because of Us’

Obama would be a foolish policitician indeed to not hang the birthers around the flabby necks of the Republican Party.
But my guess is, he spends zero time on the crazy birthers.

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Anyone who spends millions of dollars blocking access to his long form birth certificate clearly is hiding something. The issue is not going away for Mr. Obama. The percentage of Americans that now question his citizenship shows that more 30,000,000 Americans question his natural born citizenship status. That number will only grow.

zero time and, “richard”'s post notwithstanding, zero $$$
I just hope these muttonheads are still around in 2012 to queer the deal for the GOP…

—

He added that the proof-of-citizenship bill introduced in Congress by Rep. Bill Posey (R-Fla.) won’t do the trick, because it allows facsimiles — like Obama’s certificate of live birth, available online — to prove citizenship. “The Posey bill is flawed,” said Farah.—

All Obama would have to do would would be to show the same original that the factcheck people took a picture of, and guess what, the states would have no choice but to accept it.

Is Farah that stupid?

Bullshit from beginning to end.

Go back to your fossil bed, trilobite.

Anyone who spends millions of dollars blocking access to his long form birth certificate clearly is hiding something.

Oh, just knock it off. He never spent anything. stop making crap up.

Still, Farah was more optimistic than pessimistic about the resilience of the “birther” subculture, pointing out that Obama had criticized those who “question my citizenship” at his National Prayer Breakfast speech.

“He’s even talking about it now!” said Farah.

Joe, they were laughing at you, not with you.

Yes. Yes he is that stupid.

Nonsense. It's a well-known fact that Obama spent eleventy trillion dollars covering up his birth certificate, and percentage of Americans that question his citizenship now number more that 75 kajillion.

In a word……….YES!

Really?? Millions?? And how did you come to that number?? Got facts?? You know what facts are, something besides you lying ass to back this up, by the way PRICK where is yours??

“it is a well-known fact”——-well I guess that settles it, then.
What a moron

no, it was eleventy trillion quatloos spent by provider number one.

No, I don't think he's stupid; he's making a business decision, and has a good grasp of his target demographic.

Now, as for them…

Are you talking about the ridiculous “petition” on Worldnutdaily that anyone can sign as many times as they want?

It's silly for this dude to say that he just wanted to know the answer to this question.

Clearly he did not want to know the answer to his question, because they gave him the answer, and he's pretending they didn't. The president's birth certificate was shown to the public all the way back in 2008.

Birthers don't want this to be reality, they don't want the boring answer to their question, so they claim that it isn't a real birth certificate for random and moronic reasons, e.g. that it says “certification” instead of “certificate,” and they don't have a dictionary on hand to check if the two words mean the same thing.

And Orly Taitz is Shawna, the chick with the amazing bouffant and the metallic bikini, and Joseph Farah is the Chief Thrall, the one in the weird black robe who could shoot laser beams out of his eyes…

I am unsure where you found the data for “millions of dollars”. I am sure you are quite imaginative and sweet.

The 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals dismissed Philip J. Berg's birther case in November. Berg was ordered to pay the legal costs for the defendants, which included the Federal Election Commission. This was where President Obama's team (and the United States government) could get back the millions you insist was spent. But when the FEC submitted its bill, the grand total came to $20.40.

I gave you where the data came from. I gave you who was involved. And I gave you an easily checked sum of money.

$20.40

…and I think our own beloved Red Graham may be 15 million of your 30 million people. He's not so good at math or reading comprehension either.

Not to mention the alluring pornstache!

Farah and Sarah make a <del>formidable team</del> cute couple*.

*If by cute couple I mean rocking the best of 80's fashion, and I think I do.

Wow. It seems that you are just repeating a estimate that you read some where on the internet. It is people like you why Obama has lawyers defending him for free. It really doesn't take that much time or effort for these lawyers to have these frivolous politically based cases dismissed. The last bill was for $20.40, that isn't even a rounding error when considering 'millions of dollars.' $20.40 isn't even as much money that Farah can make of gullible people like you.

“That wasn’t a decision made because there was a constituency out there waiting for this, [or] it was a way to make money.”

Now there's the BS quote of the year.

“Anyone who spends millions of dollars blocking access to his long form birth certificate clearly is hiding something.”

You're wrong. He's spent a billion dollars hiding his birth certificate. Or was it a trillion? It's awfully expensive arraying the great legal minds necessary to vanquish the likes of Philip Berg, Orly Taitz, and Leo Donofrio.

It is called double talk. It is a basis of this entire conspiracy theory. They just act like everyone in America just doesn't understand English.

“The percentage of Americans that now question his citizenship shows that more 30,000,000 Americans question his natural born citizenship status.”

The other 270,000,000 Americans think they're batsh*t crazy.

“The percentage of Americans that now question his citizenship shows that more 30,000,000 Americans question his natural born citizenship status.”

That statement is false. There are people who are confused by all the misinformation, distortions of facts, and out right likes being spread by people like Joseph Farah. Then there are those who engage in spreading misinformation, distortions of American law, and spreading out right lies. You seem to be in the latter group.

I would say that he is in a perpetual trap without knowing how to get out. He has lost readership because of his “way to make money.” However, he has to keep the conspiracy theory going as “way to make money.” In my honestly opinion, I believe that If he abandoned it that would be the end of WND.

“He has lost readership because of his “way to make money.”"

I'm not sure he's lost readership. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he's gained substantial readership.

I understand that there are a lot of people who dislike President Obama and his policies, real or perceived, with a passion. They don't want to have to wait for the wheels of democracy to grind on through the 2012 election. They want instant gratification. Farah's birth certificate theories (not to mention Taitz's constitutional delusions) feed their desires for a quick fix – a way to believe that the election of 2008 isn't really final or binding. A way to believe that anything Obama does lacks legal legitimacy.

In their tunnel-vision hysteria against Obama, they have convinced themselves that they are the true Patriots – the freedom-loving constitutionalists that Americans secretly look to as they contemplate revolution.

What they are unable to see, is that they are viewed by the rest of Americans as sore losers who are disturbingly detached from the mainstream of American polity. They are seen by most legal experts as advancing frivolous nonsense. Judges have little patience for their extravagent claims and theories. Talk show hosts view their bizarre rants and demands as great freak show theater.

Farah and those in his circle of constitutional dilettants may actually think they're providing a great service to their readers, but what they're really doing is marginalizing them.

No , the president's birth certificate was NOT shown to the public. What was shown was prima facie evidence purporting to show a birth certificate exists. What you have been allowed to see is a laser-printed document containing data abstracted from the records. But, that you find that satisfactory is your flaw in judgment. The fact is you cannot claim to have seen a certified copy of the original vital statistic record.

The misinformation, distortions of facts, and out right lies being spread are coming from the Obama camp. The ploy of posting an online image of a laser-printed abstract of a vital statistic record, and then asserting it was the original document, plus the repeated claims that Obama cannot get a certified copy of his birth certificate are grossly misleading, misinformation, distortions of facts, and out right lies, ie pure propaganda and bull shit.

“The misinformation, distortions of facts, and out right lies being spread are coming from the wingnut birther idiots.”

Fixed that for you. For the record, those kind of mistakes wouldn't happen if you birthers actually had any evidence of anything you claim (fake kenyan birf sertifikats from eBay don't count, I'm afraid).

Now why would any journalist want to know the answers to such hard questions? Farah's right — It's not politically correct, after all. Thou shalt not criticize a Democrat (unless the last name begins with a “C” :-).

Anyway, I already believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and UFOs. Why shouldn't I also believe in Obama's eligibility. Myths are great things!

My seven year old son also believes in all of them — and you'll never be able to convince him otherwise.

But, hey! There's a lot more proof in any one of those than there is in Obama's eligibility.

Some things you just have to believe with faith.

There are two purported Kenyan BC. The first, was the Bomford template. The second a Lucas Smith footprint BC. As it stands to date. There has not been a certified copy of the Hawaiin BC released to the public. Therefore the best and most convincing document seen has been the Lucas Smith footprint BC. Now, I am not denying a Hawaiian birth, but I am only saying that conclusive proof has yet to surface.

Farah's absolutely incorrect, and is just a conspiracy nut.

Barack Obama has posted a birth certificate on the internet as issued by the state of Hawaii. It is a federal crime to forger a birth certificate. The only thing that has happened is that the state of Hawaii has confirmed that they have the original birth records.

I think that you should take the advice that you give your seven your child, and drop your myth about the presidents eligibility. The courts haves disagree with your birther consparicy theory.

Or, should we then that like your seven year old son that you will hold on your disillusion and that you will never be convinced otherwise?

Why do you bother continue with your consparicy theory? You have been proven wrong 6 months ago. What makes you believe that for some magical reason that the facts will change. What? You have been praying for that time, and have now decided to see if your dreams come true. You been gone so long that you don't even realize that birthers have shifted their arguments.

One Hawaii Certification of Live birth, with Hawaii independently stating that they have the original birth records. In a court of law that is more than enough.

As you obviously have access to the Internet. Your statement “the president's birth certificate was NOT shown to the public” is so factually false that by stating it is a lie would be too kind.

A birth certificate is propaganda. Are you disillusioned or confused. It is one document that is it. Propaganda involves spreading a lot of false information or doubts. It is legal in America to forger legal documents this include birth certificates. To hint or suggest the the presidents authentic birth certificate is anything but that is pure propaganda. Please, look up the word propaganda in the dictionary as you have obvious demonstrated that you don't understand its correct usage.

Beautifully put, and spot-on.

Personally I agree with whomever suggested quatloos.

How wonderful, that you're teaching your son to believe in conspiracies. He is so very lucky.

Look! It's the world's leading Jabba the Hutt imitator!

You mean it's NOT a small dead animal affixed to his upper lip?

If by 'purported' you mean 'fake' then you're entirely correct. Birthers have tried to pass off two obviously fake documents as real, fooling no one but themselves in the process. Of course, birthers are free to delude themselves with whatever nonsense they choose to, but without any actual evidence to support their ridiculous conspiracy theory the fact remains that Obama was born in Honolulu.

Maybe you should click Orly's paypal button a few more times. I heard that there's yet another kenyan birf sertifkat up for sale on eBay, and it'll give her something to read while the rest of laugh at her.

So you believe that a pregnant teenager hopped onto a plane, flew halfway around the world for the sole purpose of having her baby, and then flew back a few days later with a newborn in her arms? Really?

Perhaps you should let your son post here instead. Apparently the brains in the family skipped your generation entirely.

Then do something about it! Write and angry letter to the editor of your local paper. Organize a birther tea party. Hand out “where's the birth certificate?” bumperstickers at the local strip mall. Call your congresscritter again and again untill he does something about it.

Go for it.

See, here is exactly the sort of denial I'm talking about. They show his birth certificate, and someone says, that's not a birth certificate, it's just “a laser-printed document containing data abstracted from the records.”

But that IS a birth certificate. What do you think you receive when you order your birth certificate, a stone tablet? It's a printout of your birth records on official paper, from the state, using a modern printer.

“What was shown was prima facie evidence purporting to show a birth certificate exists.”

I can tell by your use of the phrase 'prima facie' that you have no idea what you're talking about. On the other hand, it's always hilarious when birthers try to use words that they don't understand.

If you can't accept a birth cerificate authenticated by the State of Hawaii, what proof would you accept. Maybe a film of his birth?

This is also true of perennial theories that the winner of an election rigged the machines, or otherwise cheated or tricked voters to get elected.

Note that this not only satisfies the losing side's need for instant gratification, but helps to reconcile their loss with the belief that the vast majority of Americans are on their side. The winner could only gain majority support by fooling people, or by gaming the numbers. The idea that a majority genuinely chose the other guy is too terrible a blasphemy to consider.

For example, the numerous claims that Bush stole the 2000 election overlook an inconvenient truth about voter preference: the close race only existed because both candidates were equally desired. No matter how you choose the winner, whether by recounting 0, 1 or 2 times, or even flipping a coin, the result will be as reflective of social choice as any other method.

When any race is close enough to require a careful recount, we usually see each side insist that they are the clear public choice and the other side's maneuverings are a corrupt attempt to hijack the outcome. This is of course bogus: a recount is the public's way of saying, “meh.”

The real question is, why are birthers so desperate to not know the answer? You show them the birth certificate and they desperately fail to see what is in front of them. They will say, “that's not a birth certificate, it's a certification of birth.” “That's not a birth certificate, it's just a state-issued printout of birth records.” “That's not a birth certificate, it's an image on the Internet.”

I suppose you could infiltrate a birther convention by hiding in a refrigerator box papered with copies of Obama's birth certificate. Their belief system will prevent them from seeing it.

No, conspiracy theorists have an out for that. If you don't hand them enough evidence they'll say that none exists; if you clobber them with evidence they'll just point out that it's awfully convenient that all this evidence exists, and will say so with a suspicious tone.

“The ploy of posting an online image of a laser-printed abstract of a vital statistic record,”

…but wait a second, a birth certificate IS a laser-printed abstract of a vital statistic record. When I ordered my birth-certificate to get a marriage license, I got a laser-printed abstract of my vital records. In the 1970s, my parents got a typed abstract of my vital records. What else would a birth certificate be, but a printed abstract of your vital records?

The fact is, the “ploy” consisted of producing an actual birth certificate, that people could see, touch, examine and photograph. Which the state of Hawaii asserted is real.

I don't know if anyone asserted that it was the original version, because it clearly isn't: it is a recently issued copy. But why does that matter? You don't need the original to prove your vital records; likewise, when you buy beer you don't need to provide your original drivers license from when you were 16.

There is no logical reason why you need the original document; what does it prove that an official reprint doesn't? I think birthers demand the original for the simple reason that they don't have it, and can thus claim that their questions aren't being answered.

Nance, you're on of the few who's completely and totally full of shit around here. Birfer idiot.

It's “Gerry Meandering.”

Nance:
And you just accused others of spreading misinformation?

You are so full of shit, birfer idiot.

“The misinformation, distortions of facts and out right lies being spread are coming from the Obama camp.” followed by your dysentery below of “There are two purported Kenyan BC. The first, was the Bomford template. The second a Lucas Smith footprint BC. As it stands to date.”

You're a lying piece of shit and obviously a hypocritical douche bag.

“misinformation, distortions of facts, and out right lies”

– Gerry Nance's resume.

I'm amazed he managed to take time from his career of harassing Mexicans, photographing underage girls, and eating enough at each meal to feed a family of four for a month to bother with this thread.

All that JD's you keep guzzling has pickled your fat-encrusted brain substitute if you think either of those “birth certificates” was more than a clumsy and obvious forgery.

“You show them the birth certificate and they desperately fail to see what is in front of them.”

This debate is interesting not because there's any reason to doubt that Obama was born in Hawaii, or that any court would reject the proposition that “natural born citizen” requires two citizen parents.

What's really interesting is the mindset that underlies birther reasoning. Here are a couple examples:

(1) Unrealistic and deeply cynical notions of human behavior and motivation.

In order to believe that Obama's mother gave birth to him in Kenya, but had his birth recorded in Hawaii days later, one has to believe that she didn't think Obama's potential birthplace wasn't a problem when she supposedly traveled to Kenya while pregnant. But then she suddenly decided it was crucial that he be born in the U.S. sometime around the time of, or after Obama's birth. Why would she undergo this radical transformation? Birthers don't have an answer, but I guess that's just fine to them.

Many, if not most, birthers believe the Obama COLB images are forgeries. But this requires one or more exceptionally unlikely occurrences. One is that Obama permitted his campaign to issue forged documents on the FightTheSmears site. This would seem like a crazy thing to do, when Obama could have ignored questions about his background altogether if so he chose. Another is that FactCheck was willing to report that documents which it knew were fake were in fact real, or that it conspired with Obama by doctoring its published photographs of the COLB.

Another theory is that officials for the State of Hawaii are willing to go on the record and lie that Obama has a birth certificate and that it indicates he was born in Hawaii. (Some go even further and implicitly accuse the DoH of issuing a COLB which does not accurately state the place of birth listed on Obama's original 1961 birth certificate.)

My favorite theory is that the Wong Kim Ark decision is illegitimate, and therefore not good law. The theory goes that Justice Gray, the author of the majority opinion, appointed by President Arthur, knew that if he ruled that NBC status required two citizen parents, Arthur's presidency would not be legitimate, and therefore Gray's appointment was null and void. So Grey deliberately concocted his opinion to serve himself.

(2) A tendency to read the incredible into the mundane.

After having placed images of his COLB on his own website, and then higher-quality images on the FactCheck site – which is unprecedented in U.S. history – Obama is still accused of hiding something because he hasn't produced his original birth certificate.

Americans are notorious for keeping health and vital records private. That's why we have laws like HIPAA. When birthers contact government agencies and hospitals demanding Obama's records and are inevitably turned away, this is viewed as a pernicious conspiracy of silence.

3. A willingness to take legal and historical precedent out of context.

We are all familiar with claims that the Venus, Minor, and Wong Kim Ark cases stand for the proposition that “natural born citizen” requires two citizen parents.

Of course, Venus had nothing to do with citizenship.

Minor, in the relevant passage, explored who were citizens and who weren't, not who was eligible to be president. To the extent the Court offered unattributed “doubts” as to whether children with non-citizen parents were “natural born citizens,” it was in the context of whether they were citizens at all.

Wong Kim Ark definitively answered the doubts posed by Minor as to whether children of non-citizens were themselves citizens if born in the U.S. And it did so by extensive reference to “natural born” citizenship.

But you can always count on a birther to isolate some phrase, point to a turn of phrase used by the court, and then exclaim it's a smoking gun, when in fact such a conclusion is belied by the context of the case and the arguments themselves.

We hear that Vattel's definition of “natural born citizen” controls the Constitution's definition, even though Vattel never used that term, and the Wong Kim Ark decision itself stands for the proposition that Vattel's definition did not take root in the United States.

I think the term “functional illiterate” applies.

Wow! Guess I hit a nerve when I suggested that there is more evidence for Santa's existence than for Obama's eligibility :-).

But think about it from the perspective of a seven year old….

After all, lots of authority figures go around telling you that Santa exists, or at least won't deny it.

All of your seven year old friends tell you he exists. Lots of books, pictures, newspapers, and even internet sites all say he exists.

There's lots of secondary evidence too (presents magically appear overnight, the milk and cookies are gone in the morning).

Sounds pretty convincing, doesn't it? By golly, if you don't believe in Santa, then your seven year old mind says that you're crazy! And your fellow seven year friends say that you're crazy!

And most of all, you, as a seven year old, WANT to believe. You WANT the magic. You LIKE the world this way. Why would do anything to burst the bubble?

Why ask questions?

Just ask my son!

BTW, folks shouldn't get so worked up over the minutiae of COLBs, long forms, announcements, etc.

Anyone that has done a few minutes homework on these quickly discovers that the pieces don't fit, or at least that there are viable doubts. (Other folks take the word of the authority figures. :-)

Arguing over each of these little inconsistencies is a waste of time. And there are so many of them!

The web is so full of these inconsistencies and I have so little time.

And really, it takes only a single inconsistency to put doubt on the whole structure, doesn't it?

The MSM actively avoids the root question, the fundamental question, the mother of all eligibility questions.

And I still haven't heard a good answer. In fact, I'm not sure I've seen many attempt at any answer at all. Folks start trying to argue the secondary evidence (like whether Santa prefers chocolate chip cookies or oatmeal raisin :-).

And it's a WHY question. (Remember the 5 W's from journalism?) — e.g., I wonder WHY the MSM professionals have forgotten HOW to ask WHY questions? — but that's another thread….)

Here it the kernel WHY question:

“WHY is Obama hiding the vault copy?”

That's the core question. Simple. Elegant. Uncomplicated.

But, that's the question that has launched a thousand web sites.

And that's what real journalists would be interested in. That's what the 21st century versions of Woodward and Bernstein would be pursuing.

But, I guess there are too many journalists that think like seven year olds these days.

Sigh.

“But think about it from the perspective of a seven year old….”

So in other words, think like someone that's smarter than a birther? I don't see why not.

“Wow! Guess I hit a nerve when I suggested that there is more evidence for Santa's existence than for Obama's eligibility :-).”

You do, in the sense that yours is such a transparently idiotic claim that it requires a double-take just to make sure you aren't kidding.

“Anyone that has done a few minutes homework on these quickly discovers that the pieces don't fit, or at least that there are viable doubts.”

Obviously, “viable doubts” are in the eye of the beholder. As Stephen Colbert pointed out, one can have “viable doubts” at night as to whether the sun exists, since it is not visible. To a certain extent, when we believe the sun will rise tomorrow morning, we are trusting our ability to judge the evidence, because we can't actually verify it is there at the time. By birther logic, that proposition that sun will rise tomorrow is a non-provable assertion, not a fact.

“(Other folks take the word of the authority figures. :-)”

Nice straw man argument. I've looked at the high-quality images of Obama's COLB, which states he was born in Oahu. I have looked at Hawaii law which underlies the issuance of such a document. I've heard the dubious arguments of those who say the COLB doesn't really stand for what it says it stands for.

I'm not taking the word of any authority figure except that I am accepting a state-issued document for what it purports to represent.

Now you folks say you want to see Obama's “vault” birth certificate. But if you don't accept “authority” figures, and you don't accept the COLB, why would you accept any other official state document? Isn't the original birth certificate just as worthless as the COLB? Both of them are mere documents, and not absolute proof that the event they purport to document actually transpired as represented.

So your refusal to accept “authority” simply boxes you in and precludes you from ever having a satisfactory answer to your own question.

“Here it the kernel WHY question:

“WHY is Obama hiding the vault copy?”"

This one of those great examples wherein doubts are raised by shifting the evidentiary goalposts. Never before in U.S. history has a presidential candidate publicly presented official documentation concerning his birth.

But rather than Obama getting some credit for having done so, he is now being accused of covering up his VAULT birth certificate, despite the fact that the COLB is, pursuant to Hawaii law, based on the contents of that original certificate. To a rational person, that should clear up any reasonable doubts.

And utterly pointless.

Myths are so comforting, aren't they? They explain the world so that you are not disturbed.

And you don't have to seeks answers to (or even ask) hard or embarrassing questions.

Well, let's see…you believe that an eighteen-year old girl left her home, friends, family, and everything she knew and loved to travel halfway around the world to a country where she knew no one. You believe that this same eighteen-year old gave birth in that country, then flew back home a few days later with her newborn baby in tow and lied about the entire thing.

You believe that, for the past 48 years, there has been an ongoing conspiracy to cover up this fact; this conspiracy stretches across three continents, who knows how many countries, and involves hundreds if not thousands of foreign and domestic officials, secretaries of state, judges, and one fluffy puppy.

That sounds pretty mythical (read: ridiculous) to me, but then again I'm sane. Birthers don't have that problem.

If that type of nonsense comforts you, then be sure to click on Orly's paypal button as much as possible. She needs to go back on eBay so she can buy some kenyan plane tikits to complement her collection of kenyan birf sertifikats. While you're at it, grab a few copies of Obama's indoneeshun skool rekurds too.

xcott, you are trying to distract from the point that the point of discussion is Obama's vault copy, dated August 4 1961. That document is known to to be in the custody of the government of Hawaii, and it is easily photocopied, certified and presented, in its entirety. However you anti-bithers keep holding onto your delusions and choose to ignore that fact.

ellid, your attacks on a person's appearance only shows your lack of maturity. I am still waiting for you real name bitch.

Anthony your inability to realize the factual and legal differences between an original document, a certified copy of that original document, and a laser-printed document containing data abstracted from the original document, is indicative of your lack of mental ability. You lack the facility to engage in a debate.

No, I pretty much stated the known facts and realities, but your lack of ability to grasp such concepts, only proves your flawed mental capacity.

There have been two Kenyan BC, one a fake using the Bomford template and one allegedly from an official in Kenya. However, the Kenyan government has confiscated records from the Mombasa hospital, then returned most of them two months later.

Again bitch, I oppose illegal aliens, photograph people in public, have no control over how mommies dress their kids, and could care less. I have lost 30 pounds and recently hike 7 miles at 205 pounds over my ideal weight. So, now ellid, go and hump a 200 pound pack for 7-miles. It will do you good.

“And you don't have to seeks answers to (or even ask) hard or embarrassing questions.”

The “hard or embarrasing questions” have been asked on this board. And answered. And answered. And anwered. You should have a browse.

Honestly, I do drink JD. I put one shot into a one-liter mug of ice and cola. Whoopee, at that solution it is more of a flavoring than an attempt at getting drunk. And again ellid your sick insults of fat persons only immortalizes your character flaws. You are a loser.

“That document is known to to be in the custody of the government of Hawaii, and it is easily photocopied, certified and presented, in its entirety.”

But Hawaii has issued what under Hawaii law is a certified copy. It's called the Certification of Live Birth. It doesn't have all the information found on the original birth certificate, but then Obama didn't have to be delivered at any specific hospital or by any particular doctor to be born in Hawaii. Sure enough, the COLB says he was born on the island of Oahu, which is, in fact, part of the United States, and was part of the United States in 1961. That is completely sufficient to make Obama a natural born citizen. Any requests for the original birth certificate, while perhaps of historical interest, are simply redudant to what has already been made public.

Folks, this isn't hard.

“your inability to realize the factual and legal differences between an original document, a certified copy of that original document, and a laser-printed document containing data abstracted from the original document, is indicative of your lack of mental ability.”

There are NO legal differences.

Please refer to HRS §338-13 (b):

“Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original.”

What part of that do you not understand?

(Obviously there are factual differences because the different forms of documents are not identical. But if there are no legal differences, and the fact that Obama was born in Hawaii is by definition reflected on both, the assertion that there are factual differences is of no consequence.)

Yes, I can accept a birth certificate authenticated by the State of Hawaii, when I see it, but it has yet to be seen.

It will look like this
http://nocompromisemedia.com/wp-content/uploads…

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2008/…

“Yes, I can accept a birth certificate authenticated by the State of Hawaii, when I see it, but it has yet to be seen.”

There is no such thing as a birth certificate authenticated by the State of Hawaii. The Hawaii DoH can validate an original birth certificate, or for that matter a COLB, but only to a person defined under law as having a “direct and tangible interest” in the information. “Joe Public” doesn't qualify just because he's curious.

Furthermore, the examples you linked to are digital images of birth certificates, and there is no evidences that they were either authenticated by a court or validated with state. And yet you accept them at face value. Why won't you do the same with Obama's COLB, which by its very nature is certified by the State? Why are you such a hypocrite?

Hell, I'm at the point now where I'm starting to wonder about the 'functional' part.

I don't think the trip to Kenya was planned around the pregnancy. Dunham and Obama Sr, were newlyweds, both were college students, and they had a convenient summer break, to go and visit his family. Classes wouldn't start until November and the cost of living in Kenya was cheap. I think they waited too long, tried to fly out, but were not allowed to fly at her stage of pregnancy. I also think grandmother Dunham recorded the birth.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/24001567/Obama-BC-GMom

But, nothing has been brought out in court, so we may never know the truth.

“Dunham and Obama Sr, were newlyweds, both were college students, and they had a convenient summer break, to go and visit his family. Classes wouldn't start until November and the cost of living in Kenya was cheap. I think they waited too long, tried to fly out, but were not allowed to fly at her stage of pregnancy. I also think grandmother Dunham recorded the birth.”

Interesting theory, but it doesn't explain why they “waited too long” if it was so important for Dunham to have Obama born in the U.S., even if it required having her mother to file a false document with the state.

Nor does your theory explain where they got the money to fly from Hawaii to Kenya, or where Dunham lived while in Kenya. (The latter would have been an especially difficult issue, because Obama Sr. was hiding another wife back home in Kenya.)

Nor does your theory explain why Obama's own grandmother is on record as stating Obama was born in Hawaii.

“http://www.scribd.com/doc/24001567/Obama-BC-GMom”

I dig the forgery you posted. It says “Birthplace: Kenya; Registered: Honolulu.”

If that were the case, of course, Obama's COLB would state he was born in Kenya, not Oahu. And Fukino would not be going on record as saying the DoH has Obama's original birth certificate and it says he was BORN in Hawaii. And Kapi'olani Hospital would not be on record as saying that Obama's January 24, 2009 letter stating it was his birth hospital was “real” and “treasured” by those who work there.

If Wong Kim Ark was born in California today, I would have to argue that California state law would not make him a citizen of California, and therefore he could not be a citizen of the USA.

CALIFORNIA GOVERNMENT CODE

241. The citizens of the State are:
(a) All persons born in the State and residing within it, except
the children of transient aliens and of alien public ministers and
consuls.
(b) All persons born out of the State who are citizens of the
United States and residing within the State.

242. Persons in the State not its citizens are either:
(a) Citizens of other States; or
(b) Aliens.

270. Every person while within the State is subject to its
jurisdiction and entitled to its protection.

271. Allegiance is the obligation of fidelity and obedience which
every citizen owes to the State.

“If Wong Kim Ark was born in California today, I would have to argue that California state law would not make him a citizen of California, and therefore he could not be a citizen of the USA.”

You really are ignorant of how the law works, aren't you?

State law does not determine whether a person is a citizen of the United States. The Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment to Constitution does with respect to persons born in the United States. Federal law does with respect to persons born outside the U.S., which is supreme by virtue of Congress' express constitutional right to create uniform naturalization laws.

If we followed you tortured reasoning, that would enable state law to trump the Fourteenth Amendment and supreme federal law, which clearly is not permissible.

Try again.

Uhhh, nope. Still not persuasive or cogent reasons for WHY Obama is hiding the vault copy.

Silly answers like “Little Billy didn't have to, so I don't have to” or “This is a slippery slope — I have to draw the line here or they'll ask me for my college records next and they won't stop until they get the secret atomic bomb codes for the North American defense perimeter” don't cut it.

Obama is a politician, and politicians are vote-driven. They do anything to get votes and to avoid losing votes.

This is vote losing proposition — Obama gains zero votes among the faithful for hiding the documents, but he loses votes among the independents for raising doubts. Just look at the Internet chatter.

Obama's political handlers have probably been gnashing their teeth over their boss' refusal to clear all this stuff up.

Further, politicians ALWAYS take the path of least resistance. Politicians release documents when the documents support them, they hide documents when the documents are damaging. Human nature. Politician nature. They try to clear their names of anything muddy. Always have, always will.

And, politicians do the cleaning up as quickly as possible, because they do not like the potential of something spinning out of control. Keep these things in control!

For example, politicians almost always release tax and financial documents if a tax or conflict of interest controversy shows up…. Unless the documents are hurtful. Similary, medical records or visitor logs may or may not be released, depending on the political weighting calculus.

Politicians do not like to be accused of hiding stuff. But they'll take it if showing the stuff is worse.

Now there are two other classes of answers — both conspiratorial and conniving along the line of Machiavelli, but neither class is plausible, and both break the control instinct above.

First, “Obama is setting an oh! so clever trap, an October 2012 surprise — he'll release the documents and show what idiots the eligibility people have been. Ha Ha!” Again, not a vote winner, and, as far as I know, it's never been in political history. I'd love to hear about an example of it, though.

Second, “Obama is doing this on purpose to divert attention from real issues.” Once more, not a vote winner, and once more, I'm not aware of historical precedents of this being a deliberate strategy for a politician. I'm willing to learn, however. Perhaps when he leaves office, Obama will write a book on political science about having invented a whole new political strategy?

Finally, people like us trying to answer the big WHY question through thought experiments is not the journalist way. This type of process is making excuses. It's the lazy way. The journalist way is to go out and get the FACTS.

Remember, Woodward and Bernstein did not sit in front of their machines and “suppose” this, “posit” those, or “guess” that. They questioned people, dug for info, and generally made a nuisance of themselves. They made quite a few enemies for themselves.

And they did not simply take for granted the existence of Santa Claus so they could focus on reporting about the latest exploits of the Tooth Fairy.

MSM journalists have forgotten.

(Actually 99.99% of MSM journalists in 1973 were probably just as lazy as the journalists today — there were few Woodwards and Bernsteins even then. But they were young and hungry and had the support of their management — And, I gotta believe there are young and hungry MSM journalists now, but I do question the MSM managements…. But, again, that's another thread.)

That still makes absolutely no sense because you're implying that a pregnant woman would ignore the advice of her doctor and fly halfway around the world. The whole 'going on vacation' thing is pretty weak by itself…and that's before birthers claim that she knowingly got onto an airplane when she was eight months pregnant. Every time a birther attempts to make their fairy tale sound plausible they fail. The trip to Kenya wasn't planned around the pregnancy for one reason and one reason only: there was no trip to Kenya.

Another hole in your fairy tale: if classes didn't start until November then it would have made more sense for Obama's mother to stay in Hawaii until after Obama was born, and then go on this 'vacation' when it was safer for her to fly on a plane. For your story to make sense she would have to have no idea that she was eight months pregnant, and that's just stupid.

“Uhhh, nope. Still not persuasive or cogent reasons for WHY Obama is hiding the vault copy.”

Fact 1: The DoH has stated that when people ask it for their birth certificates, currently they are given COLBs.

Fact 2: Obama has presented a copy of his Hawaiian COLB to FactCheck, which posted nine high-quality images of it online for anyone to see.

http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_ce…
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_ce…
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_ce…
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_ce…
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_ce…
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_ce…
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_ce…
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_ce…
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_ce…

Fact 3: Those images show a document with a raised seal and a line which states that Obama was born on “Oahu” on August 4, 1961.

Fact 4: By Hawaii law, the COLB presents certain information contained on the source vital record.

Fact 5: The DoH is on record as stating that Obama's original birth certificate is on file there.

Fact 6: Because the COLB states Obama was born on Oahu, by law and inference the original birth certificate also states Obama was born on Oahu.

Fact 7: Oahu is and was part of Hawaii, which is and was U.S. soil.

Fact 8: Obama's parents were not diplomats.

Fact 9: Obama's parents were not citizens of a hostile power occupying Hawaii.

Fact 10: Under the Fourteenth Amendment, and through precedent like Wong Kim Ark, a person born in Obama's circumstances is both a U.S. citizen by birth, and a natural born citizen, without regard for the nationality of his parents.

That is simply all the information necessary to prove Obama was born in the United States, and therefore is a natural born citizen. If that isn't persuasive or cogent enough, I can't help you.

You can do all the psychoanalyzing you like about why Obama hasn't bothered to issue yet more documents, but it doesn't change any of these facts. Period.

“Silly answers like “Little Billy didn't have to, so I don't have to” or “This is a slippery slope — I have to draw the line here or they'll ask me for my college records next and they won't stop until they get the secret atomic bomb codes for the North American defense perimeter” don't cut it.

(Actually 99.99% of MSM journalists in 1973 were probably just as lazy as the journalists today — there were few Woodwards and Bernsteins even then. But they were young and hungry and had the support of their management — And, I gotta believe there are young and hungry MSM journalists now, but I do question the MSM managements…. But, again, that's another thread.)”

That's a lot of talk, and while it may be therapeutic for you to get that off your chest, it doesn't address the cold hard facts that I set forth above.

However, what you are accepting is not a copy, you are accepting abstracted data as original. You can read your driver's license and enter some of the data into your computer and print that from your printer, then you can make a photocopy of your driver's license and compare the differences. Would a cop accept what you print from your printer?

The document on FactCheck is abstracted data printed on “boiler plate” form and the stamped and signed on the back. It is true data, but not the whole data you would see on the original. The document on FactCheck is a “half-truth”, but not the full truth.

No, Look again, Hawaii did not issue a certified copy. Hawaii issued a certified original laser-printed document, that contains data abstracted from the original.

Are you fooled that easily?

So, when did you stop beating your wife?

A notarized birth certificate that has been confirmed as genuine by state officials is not a myth. It's a fact. It's just a fact that you don't like.

Shorter birther: Vattel Vattel Vattel Law of Nations socialist usurper Kenyan Vattel.

Wow. What institution threw *you* out into the street?

Wow. Someone with more identities than Sybil. Who would have thought it?

So why would they go to Mombossa, which was a thousand miles from where Obama, Sr's family lived, had no international airport for them to fly into, and was not even part of Kenya at the time?
Your scenario fails the common-sense test, the plausibility test, and the non-crazy test.

Why so many handles? You must have a couple of hundred. Are you Truddi Chase, or just a random ass who enjoys spewing nonsense?

Fortunately, you are not a lawyer, and Wong Kim Ark lived and died before he was unfortunate enough to meet a bloated racist coward like you.

Simple answer:

Because Gerry “Borderraven” Nance doesn't like people who are darker than he is. If Barack Obama were named John Jones and his non-American father were Canadian, he wouldn't give a rat's patoot, and neither would any of his dear little friends.

That's because they didn't go to Kenya, you lackwit.

I think the resident Minuteman is, as they say, “dumb as a box of hair.”

Google “borderraven” and prepare to be appalled. I'm amazed that he manages to waddle around under his own power, let alone perform any other activities of daily living.

Based on Borderraven's comment below, I'm afraid it is hard, at least for him.

You never asked for my real name. Why should I give it to someone who gets his jollies making misogynistic videos?

Anyone who equates a photocopy or a home-printed page with a state-issued, sealed, and certified document is too stupid to engage.

“Would a cop accept what you print from your printer?”

No, but that’s not analogous to our situation. The Obama campaign didn’t print the COLB – the State of Hawaii did. That’s exactly why I accept the COLB as standing for the facts it represents.

“The document on FactCheck is abstracted data printed on “boiler plate” form and the stamped and signed on the back. It is true data, but not the whole data you would see on the original. The document on FactCheck is a “half-truth”, but not the full truth.”

The COLB obviously starts off as a boilerplate document, but then so did Obama’s original “vault” birth certificate. That is the very nature of official state forms.

This “boilerplate,” as you call it, is populated by the State of Hawaii with information originating from their records. Under Hawaii law, not only is the DoH permitted to do this, but the resultant document is considered “for all purposes the same as the original.”

The COLB is an official document, produced by a state agency with the authority to produce it, representing facts within their records. You can’t get any more official and reliable than that.

You’re using falsehoods to create doubt where none legitimately exists.

“Hawaii did not issue a certified copy. Hawaii issued a certified original laser-printed document, that contains data abstracted from the original.”

You’re making a distinction that does not exist under the law. A document need not be a photographic reproduction to be a copy. Under statute, it need only reproduce “the contents” of a certificate for it to be a copy. A laser-printed document bearing facts originating from the original document is sufficient to meet that rule.

Is this really all you have?

Interesting, that it’s perfectly all right for you to call women bitches, take salacious videos of young girls on the beach, insult and harass non-whites and females who disagree with you, and call trained and educated lawyers stupid, but you start whining and complaining whenever someone criticizes you. Is that one of the privileges of being a Minuteman?

The violence of your reaction and your choice of language belie your claims of not caring.

I also do not believe for one minute that you walked seven yards carrying a pack that is approximately twice the standard weight of a fully loaded infantryman’s pack, let alone seven miles. A SEAL in peak physical condition wouldn’t be able to carry the equivalent of a fully grown human that far, let alone a middle aged civilian.

You're a fucking idiot, plain and simple.

Where's your proof he's hiding his birth information?
I think you're a fucking idiot that doesn't understand HIPAA or much of anything else.

I think you're a brain damaged disgrace to rational, U.S. citizens.

Fucking dumbass.

You're an idiot. Seriously, you're a complete idiot.

And you're an idiot attempting to practice law without a license.

Go fuck yourself, asshole.

And you posted before you didn't believe the Kenyan BC stories.

Gerry Nance is a fucking lunatic, hypocrite and consistent liar.

Don't use words you don't understand, Gerry.

Dumbass.

Holy fuck, you’re a paranoid, deranged dumbass.

Fuck you, Gerry. You’re a certifiable, paranoid lunatic. You need Thorazine or a federal prison cell.

You’re really losing it, Gerry. Your mind, bitch.

So, I take it from your reply that you would have NO problem with Obama releasing his vault copy document? You wouldn't mind, would you? You don't believe it would cause a crises or weaken the United States or lead to the end of Western Civilization?

The rest of the response seems to make the argument that the vault copy is unnecessary since the secondary and derivative evidence is sufficient.

All that still begs the question on WHY Obama doesn't release it — even it were legally the case that he didn't need to (and I'm not going there one way or the other), what would be the harm? It could only benefit Obama politically.

Politicians frequently release documents they are not legally obligated to release. Keeps their image clean and free from taint and corruption. And a politician's image is everything.

Cleaning up this issue would probably win him votes from independents, undecideds, and even some wavering, skeptical Democrats. Obama certainly wouldn't lose from it, would he? Wouldn't lessen his chances of wining in 2012. Right?

(Even Obama got only one additional vote in the entire country from it, it would still be a very cheap vote compared to the advertising/campaign cost per vote. Off the top, I think it's about $10-20/vote?)

(I'll grant you that there are die-hards out there that will not be convinced no matter what — Obama will never get their vote anyway — but a huge percentage of the eligibility folks would be happy with the vault copy — again, check the web chatter.)

So, I take it that you do not anticipate any surprises in the vault copy. (I honestly don't know whether there are any surprises or not — what I do find surprising is the very fact that Obama has not released it.) I honestly HOPE that there are no surprises in the there. But it does need clearing up.

It could only be to Obama's advantage to release it. Correct? What's the down side? I don't see any.

So, if you can see no problem with releasing the vault copy, WHY do you suppose Obama has not released it?

These really are simple, common sense questions.

BTW, I have not seen any official statements that the vault copy has been destroyed or lost, or that Obama cannot authorize its release.

Maybe you can show him how it's done, by “releasing” your “vault copy.”

Personally I think that's a nonsensical thing to say: I cannot somehow “release” my state's original vital records, assuming they still exist on paper.

But let me answer your question: I think the president isn't lifting a finger to do this because (a) it's the same information as the reprint, so it's pointless to do so; (b) it won't change the minds of birthers, who will just demand some other record; and (c) you so completely discredit the conservative movement that the president probably benefits from keeping you guys shouting your theories.

Of these two conflicting claims, the “myth” is probably the one that contradicts the documentary evidence and testimony.

We have the state-issued birth certificate, that people have personally inspected and photographed; we have the state of HI verify that it is legit. Who's the wide-eyed believer, the person who accepts this, or the person who denies this as part of some fantastic story about Kenyan manchurian candidates?

“Hawaii issued a certified original laser-printed document, that contains data abstracted from the original.”

That IS a birth certificate. That IS the document you must provide when you must provide your birth certificate.

I don’t understand the obsession over the original, since the reprint is sufficient evidence of birth.

.I don't want to get mired in details about the mechanics of releasing the vault copy — I defer to the experts — however, I'm confident a vault copy exists and can be obtained with Obama's cooperation. I've not seen anything official infering that it cannot be done.

a) There should be more info on the vault copy than on the COLB — that's the whole point.

b) Even if it changed no one's mind, would it hurt? And I gotta believe he would get at least one additional vote out of, what, 120 million? Even one additional vote might be worth it, right? Would it not be worth it?

c) Obama himself seems very aware of the issue, if not at least a little concerned — the comment he made at the National Prayer Breakfast last week was perhaps meant as a joke, but he did not say it in his usual, elegant joking way. There was a decided edge in his delivery. There was a nerve somewhat exposed.

Also, again, remember that Obama is (rightfully) a politician. Politicians never (so far as I'm aware) purposely try to alienate votes. Politicians try to be as inclusive as possible while staying credible. Votes can be precious in close elections — just ask Al Gore. :-)

If a politician can do something simple to win votes, he will do it, unless there is too high a price. Releasing the vault copy should be low cost and low risk. Right? It would be the rational thing to do. Right?

Doing so might contain the eligibility debate, and that would only be beneficial politically.

The other documentation issues (college records, passport, etc.) would then change from being a Constitutional issue to a much simpler and less contentious and less emotional one of character as a youth.

(For example, if he is an NBC but did college as a foreign student, well, that's character, not eligibility. He was simply gaming the system — maybe that shows nerve, imagination, initiative, and, dare I say it, audacity. Maybe that might win some voters over as a positive thing. And heck, there have other Presidents and even Vice Presidents that did shady and even stupid things in college. :-)

Believe me, the Constitutional dimension of this issue is much, much stronger than the character dimension. The Constitutional component is the reason the issue resonates so strongly with so many people.

Also, releasing the vault copy might dampen the movement in state legislatures to stregthen the eligibility vetting in states (though, actually, I personally hope not, because I believe we've learned from this and should make sure it does not happen again.) But it's likely to Obama's benefit if he did not have to run rigid state gauntlets in 2012 to prove eligibility. It would take only a single state (e.g., AZ) to cause potential grief.

Remember that in the two to three years before the 2012 campaign hits, a lot can happen. It's to Obama's advantage to keep control of issues as much as possible — not fan the flames of something not in his control.

All this must be clear, not only to Obama, but especially to his political handlers. Yet, he does not release the vault copy. WHY?

And WHY are more journalists not asking these questions?

“So, I take it from your reply that you would have NO problem with Obama releasing his vault copy document? You wouldn't mind, would you? You don't believe it would cause a crises or weaken the United States or lead to the end of Western Civilization?”

Nope. I'm not concerned in the slightest. If President Obama decides at some point to do so, that's fine with me.

To be clear, I don't oppose the release of the original birth certificate. My point is to demonstrate we already know everything we need to know to establish what is on that document.

“The rest of the response seems to make the argument that the vault copy is unnecessary since the secondary and derivative evidence is sufficient.”

That's correct. Unless some people are committing some well-planned, highly coordinated and sophisticated fraud, by virtue of the statements which have been made, the laws on the books, and the indisputable photographic evidence of the COLB, we can deduce that the original birth certificate MUST (not might) indicate that Obama was born in Hawaii.

“All that still begs the question on WHY Obama doesn't release it — even it were legally the case that he didn't need to (and I'm not going there one way or the other), what would be the harm? It could only benefit Obama politically.”

With all the heated rhetoric about Obama's COLB, it's easy to lose sight of the fact that when Obama originally placed a scanned image of the COLB on his FightTheSmears site it was completely unprecedented.

Rather than resolving doubts, the COLB only generated new ones. So Obama took yet another unprecedented step and permitted an outside organization to inspect and photograph his COLB. Imagine any other candidate subjecting himself to such an indignity.

Again, these photographs sparked a cottage industry that made increasingly bizarre claims that the COLB had been somehow faked, or that the photos were doctored.

I can understand how Obama has taken the lesson from all of this that any document he releases is only going to generate more questions and controversies than answers.

For example, if Obama releases his original birth certificate, it will list the hospital, plus an attending physician. Obama may have determined that, in addition to not resolving the “controversy,” he will be subjecting institutions and people to endless questions and badgering from conspiracy theorists trying to debunk every last detail in the birth certificate.

One last thing – releasing the original birth certificate is a tacit admission that the COLB is not sufficient to demonstrate that Obama's birth certificate says he was born in the U.S. And this, as I have pointed out, is absurd.

“Cleaning up this issue would probably win him votes from independents, undecideds, and even some wavering, skeptical Democrats. Obama certainly wouldn't lose from it, would he? Wouldn't lessen his chances of wining in 2012. Right?”

Actually, I disagree. The people who are willing to believe that he is a liar who is willing to cover up his lack of citizenship status were never going to vote for him in the first place. These are the people who think he's trying to destroy America, and would rather hang out with terrorists than Joe Sixpack.

Obama supporters generally respect him at least enough to not believe Obama would engage in fraud and conspiracy.

“(I'll grant you that there are die-hards out there that will not be convinced no matter what — Obama will never get their vote anyway — but a huge percentage of the eligibility folks would be happy with the vault copy — again, check the web chatter.)”

I'd like to believe that, but I suspect that releasing the birth certificate would spark, as I said before, yet another cottage industry trying to dissect the birth certificate. People will claim that it's “just” an image on the web, that it wasn't submitted to a panel of experts, that it was released to friendly parties, that the typesetting is curious, etc., etc., etc.

“So, I take it that you do not anticipate any surprises in the vault copy. (I honestly don't know whether there are any surprises or not — what I do find surprising is the very fact that Obama has not released it.) I honestly HOPE that there are no surprises in the there. But it does need clearing up.”

If I really thought there was any reason to believe the birth certificate held surprises, I would be out front in demanding to see it. But I just can't see it. Those people who demand to see it do so not because they can point to any substantial deficiency in the COLB, but because they can't understand why Obama doesn't release his birth certificate. Because they can't understand (or aren't sympathetic to) Obama's personal motivation, they assume something sinister is afoot, and that leads to certain people to speculate things which are beyond (and contrary to) the facts we already know.

“BTW, I have not seen any official statements that the vault copy has been destroyed or lost, or that Obama cannot authorize its release.”

A DoH spokeswoman is on record as saying Obama's original birth certificate is “on file” with the state, and that it says he was born in Hawaii.

Having said that, Naturalizedcitizen reminded me of a curious story last summer that in 2001 the DoH had destroyed original birth certificates and replaced them with electronically scanned files. I never heard about that again, and don't know whether that was apocryphal or not. In any event, there should at least be an image of Obama's original birth certificate in their possession.

“a) There should be more info on the vault copy than on the COLB — that's the whole point.”

True. But we already know it's going to say he was born in Hawaii. The other details are not relevant to whether he is a natural born citizen.

Naturalizedcitizen likes to point out that, under the laws of the time, a relative could have filled out the birth certificate and presented it to the DoH. I can't rule that out. However, at the very least, we would still have an official document which says Obama was born in Hawaii, and we'd have little way, if any, of disproving its contentions.

“b) Even if it changed no one's mind, would it hurt? And I gotta believe he would get at least one additional vote out of, what, 120 million? Even one additional vote might be worth it, right? Would it not be worth it?”

The future isn't written yet. For all we know, he plans to release it in 2012 so as to have maximum impact on the race. Or he could have decided long ago that, on principle he's not going to release a document which is effectively redundant to what he has already released.

“c) Obama himself seems very aware of the issue, if not at least a little concerned — the comment he made at the National Prayer Breakfast last week was perhaps meant as a joke, but he did not say it in his usual, elegant joking way. There was a decided edge in his delivery. There was a nerve somewhat exposed.”

I saw that, and that was a bit surprising. I figure he doesn't take nearly as much interest in the birther issues as some of us do, and from time to time he's no doubt surprised that the story still has legs in some circles.

Maybe over time that might make him rethink his stance. I don't know.

“Also, releasing the vault copy might dampen the movement in state legislatures to stregthen the eligibility vetting in states (though, actually, I personally hope not, because I believe we've learned from this and should make sure it does not happen again.)”

I take a different view. I'd like to think this episode has taught cooler heads that, in time it might be useful to amend the Constitution so that presidential eligibilty isn't (1) so narrow and (2) isn't defined by obscure rules subject to confusion and debate.

I'd like to see the NBC provision discarded and replaced with a naturalization/residency requirement.

[...] [...]

“And really, it takes only a single inconsistency to put doubt on the whole structure, doesn't it?”

So far, no. Orly Taitz has so far been repeatedly laughed out of court, so the sum total of her alleged inconsistencies doesn't seem to amount to any real doubt by normal people.

Your last paragraph has merit, but even with this nonsense about President Obama I can't see it happening any time soon. Personally I'd rather see something addressing corporate personhood, or (dare I say it?) a revival of the ERA.

The identity of the body venerated as that of Nicholas of Myra aka St. Nicholas aka Sinterklaas aka Santa Claus is not beyond dispute, as you seem to think it is. There was a thriving trade in faked relics and falsified identification of allegedly incorrupt and saintly corpses almost from the beginning of the Christian Era, and at this point the best that can be said about the existence of a man named Nicholas who lived in Myra, died, was canonized, and whose alleged corpse is now the subject of a legal battle between Turkey and Italy, is that it's possible but by no means proven.

That Barack Obama was born in Hawaii is, despite your mewlings, well documented. Your comparison is absurd.

“I don't want to get mired in details about the mechanics of releasing the vault copy”

This is precisely why your belief is a myth: you are disinterested in the actual details of whether or not it is impossible.

And no, you don't “defer to the experts.” Here, the experts on Obama's eligibility are the HI dept of health, and judges who reviewed the legal arguments by Orly Taitz et al. If you deferred to them, you would not believe the zany conspiracy theory.

“There should be more info on the vault copy than on the COLB — that's the whole point.”

Name one piece of info on this “vault copy” that would be relevant to the president's citizenship or eligibility. It's not like the original document had a “just kidding” field.

You ask, why not release it? Why not expose the dept. of health's internal records from which the birth certificate was composed? Why not release all this extra information that has no bearing on citizenship? Because it has no bearing on citizenship.

Article 1 Section 8 of the US Constitution restricts to the legislature the power to regulate naturalization. Citizenship originates under state law.

The 14th Amendment as defined by 8 USC 1401, only defines federal citizenship laws recognizing state citizenship. Read it carefully, a person must be born in one of the states united under the US Constitution.

Also see Hawaii Revised Statue
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol01_…
… ” Act of June 27, 1952, 66 Stat 166 (McCarran-Walter Act), and the present provisions are contained in 8 U.S.C.A. 1435(a).

Under Art. 17, §1, of the Const. of 1894 (adapted from the 14th Am. of the U.S. Const.) all persons born or naturalized in the Hawaiian Islands and subject to the jurisdiction of the Republic of Hawaii were citizens thereof.” …

However, let us not ignore the facts of birth regarding Barack Hussein Obama II, that his father Barack Hussein Obama, was an alien legally present in the USA, as a student, and a British citizen. Therefore, Barack Hussein Obama II, is a dual-national and cannot be a natural born US citizen.

In reference to the holding or decision of Wong Kim Ark, born in San Francisco , to two Chinese aliens, he was not determined to be a NBC, by SCOTUS, and dissenting views hold he was not a US citizen.

In the controversial case Perkins vs. Elg, (1939) … Marie Elizabeth Elg, who was born in the United States of Swedish parents naturalized in the United States, had not lost her birthright U.S. citizenship because of her removal during minority to Sweden…SCOTUS declared Elg “to be a natural born citizen of the United States.”

All big fat birfer lies……….but keep hope alive, richard…….after all, you birfers ARE entertaining……..

Wrong again bitch. The issue is not about race. This is all about the strength of the US Constitution.

What is the conspiracy?

No I don't think so. I may have stated “for the sake of argument let's assume” or “assuming a Hawaiian birth”, but I try to give equal weight to both origins, however evidence presented leans more towards Kenya.

Wrong from beginning to end.

Ellid, are you stating a fact or blowing out your ass? They were married, and his family was in Kenya, so there was a high probability they went there. They were married before a justice of the peace on the island of Maui on February 2, 1961, when Ann was 3-months pregnant. They had both motive and opportunity to go to Kenya for the summer break.

You are so ignorant, to assume they never went to Kenya.

My putative descent from a canine is not relevant. Your refusal to address my main point – that neither you nor anyone else would give a damn about this alleged conspiracy if Barack Obama's father were white and from an English-speaking country – speaks for itself.

I'm sorry to tell you this, but two blatant forgeries, a clumsily edited tape, and a handful of inaccurate foreign news sources are not evidence of anything except a smear campaign. Your willingness to accept them over a government-issued document,a contemporary letter describing an eyewitness account, two contemporary newspaper announcements, and the statements of three Hawaiian officials is evidence that you are out of your mind.

Mombasa was a British protectorate and the UK was an ally of the USA, so it is possible to fly a British airline to Hawaii.

And oh, yes – military studies going back as far as early 20th century confirm that the ideal load is no more than 1/3 of the carrier’s body weight, or about 60-70 pounds for an average adult male. Elite units, like the SEALs, Force Recon, or the Green Berets, carry 40 pounds so they can move quickly. Unless you are now claiming to weigh 600 pounds, your claim to have carried 200 pounds on a hike is not only ridiculous, it’s not even good military practice. What was your last posting, the USS Backyard Pool?

If the birth occurred on August 4, 1961, then conception happened late October or early November 1960. Ann was 3 months pregnant in February 1961, so a trip to Kenya during the second trimester, was not impossible. Their motive was to visit his family, the opportunity was summer break until November 1961, and low cost of living in Kenya. Going to Kenya, presented no problem, but depending on length of stay, departing may have been postponed due to advanced pregnancy.

Wouldn’t you like to know the truth?

“Article 1 Section 8 of the US Constitution restricts to the legislature the power to regulate naturalization.”

The naturalization powers of Congress have been long understood as including the power to confer citizenship on persons not born within the United States. That was true as far back as the Naturalization Act of 1790.

“Citizenship originates under state law.”

State citizenship originates under state law. U.S. citizenship originated with the origin of the United States. State citizenship and U.S. citizenship are not the same thing, and the states have exactly zero power to define what constitutes a U.S. citizen.

The only role that states have in terms of U.S. citizenship is that they provide proof for whether a person meets the qualifications for being a U.S. citizen. For example, the U.S. Constitution provides that a person is a U.S. citizen if he is born in the United States. A state like Hawaii merely provides the proof (via a birth certificate) that a given person was born in the United States. The person therefore can demonstrate that he meets the qualifications for being a U.S. citizen, and therefore is a U.S. citizen. The state has no power to confer or rescind citizenship once that proof has been established.

“The 14th Amendment as defined by 8 USC 1401, only defines federal citizenship laws recognizing state citizenship. Read it carefully, a person must be born in one of the states united under the US Constitution.”

Congress does not have the power to define constitutional terms. The Fourteenth Amendment has a particular meaning, which remains unchanged regardless of what Congress may choose to decree. Federal citizenship laws therefore apply to those people not made U.S. citizens by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Ironically, you are citing federal citizenship laws, even though you just argued (wrongly) that the Constitution limits the power to define citizenship to the states.

“Also see Hawaii Revised Statue
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol01_…
… ” Act of June 27, 1952, 66 Stat 166 (McCarran-Walter Act), and the present provisions are contained in 8 U.S.C.A. 1435(a).”

Hawaii law has no bearing on whether a person is a U.S. citizen. Period.

“Under Art. 17, §1, of the Const. of 1894 (adapted from the 14th Am. of the U.S. Const.) all persons born or naturalized in the Hawaiian Islands and subject to the jurisdiction of the Republic of Hawaii were citizens thereof.”"

Citizens of Hawaii, mind you. Whether such persons were U.S. citizens was not within Hawaii's powers to determine.

“Therefore, Barack Hussein Obama II, is a dual-national and cannot be a natural born US citizen.”

There is no constitutional restriction preventing a dual national from qualifying as a natural born citizen. None whatsoever.

Furthermore, we have already had several dual nationals serve as U.S. presidents. These include, at minimum, James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, and Chester Arthur.

“In reference to the holding or decision of Wong Kim Ark, born in San Francisco , to two Chinese aliens, he was not determined to be a NBC, by SCOTUS, and dissenting views hold he was not a US citizen.”

The dissenting opinion, of course, is not law, and the subsequent 112 years of U.S. jurisprudence has totally and completely rejected the views it expounded. You won't find an attorney in the land that would say otherwise.

It is true that Wong Kim Ark did not directly decide that Wong Kim Ark was an NBC. The case was about whether he was a citizen pursuant to the Fourteenth Amendment, given its qualification that the person born in the U.S. must be “subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” (Once again, evidence that your theory about state law controlling U.S. citizenship is bogus.)

In determining whether a person born to non-citizen parents was “subject to the jurisdiction” of the U.S., the Court made extensive reference to NBC and NBS, and those references clearly showed that NBC/NBS was understood as referring to birth on the territory, regardless of parentage. Had the Court not so understood NBC/NBS, “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” would have been interpreted in such a way as to prevent application of the Fourteenth Amendment as to Wong Kim Ark. Clearly that did not happen.

“In the controversial case Perkins vs. Elg, (1939) … Marie Elizabeth Elg, who was born in the United States of Swedish parents naturalized in the United States, had not lost her birthright U.S. citizenship because of her removal during minority to Sweden…SCOTUS declared Elg “to be a natural born citizen of the United States.”

Elg was born in the United States and was declared to be a “natural born citizen.” I rest my case.

This isn't about the strength of the Constitution, because birthers completely ignore the Constitution. There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution that restricts natural-born citizenship to people born on American soil to two citizen parents. There is no prohibition in the Constution against 'dual-nationals' becoming President.

Like all birthers, you're trying to bootstrap your interpretation of 'Law of Nations' up to the level of the Constitution. Like all birthers, you're failing miserably because everyone else knows more than you do.

Repeating debunked lies, made up facts, and ridiculous legal theories…none of those things are a replacement for actual knowledge and logic, two things that birthers have no concept of.

Before you cut-and-paste some more nonsense from WND, maybe you should take the time to actually read the Constitution instead of letting Orly misinterpret it for you. You're only as delusional as you allow yourself to be.

*gasps for breath after laughing hysterically*

The Kenyan government has stated, repeatedly and unequivocally, that Barack Obama Sr. did not once visit Kenya during his time in graduate school in America. Their records further state that Stanley Ann Dunham never visited Kenya in her life.

*returns to laughing*

And oh – you’re forgetting that Stanley Dunham, being in the third trimester of pregnancy, would been well into the travel restriction period during the summer of 1961. That means no travel farther than one hour from her home or the hospital where she planned to deliver, let alone 10,000 miles away to a place (Mombasa) that was not even part of her husband’s homeland.

Not only are you ignorant of the law, you clearly know nothing of obstetrics….

That still makes no sense. Your claim that she would risk her own health, as well as the health and safety of her child, to go on a vacation is just as ridiculous as it was the first time you mentioned it. And again, if school were to start in November (?), it STILL would’ve have been much more logical for her to wait until after she had given birth before hopping onto a plane halfway around the world.

As far as this ‘motive’ nonsense is concerned, that’s a moot point because a motive is not proof of any action. Claiming that someone had a ‘motive’ to do something is no replacement for empirical facts and relevant, admissible evidence. Are you even trying to sound intelligent?

Your ridiculous fairy tale still makes absolutely no sense, so go back to WND and cut-and-paste a different one. This is getting old.

First, you’re mangling the English language (again) by mixing your tenses.

Second, Mombasa was part of Zanzibar, not an independent entity.

Third, Great Britain being an ally of the United States does not and never did have anything to do with American travel to British colonies in Africa.

Fourth, I have yet to see any record that there were any flights *to* Kenya from Honolulu in 1961, let alone that Stanley Dunham rejected her doctor’s advice and flew 10,000 miles during her third trimester.

I already know the truth: that President Obama was born in Hawaii. I would, however, like it very much if you stopped pontificating on things you clearly nothing about.

Oh, one more thing:

Where did you get the idea that any American university, anywhere, had a summer break that ran from late spring to NOVEMBER?

I already know the truth, and it’s not your paranoid little fantasy.

bluethunder wrote: Here it the kernel WHY question: “WHY is Obama hiding the vault copy?” That's the core question. Simple. Elegant. Uncomplicated. But, that's the question that has launched a thousand web sites.”

Back up a bit blue….first of all, you have conveniently decided to pretend that the question of whether President Obama is hiding something as been answered and in birfer world, it has and he IS hiding something. NOW you are at the WHY is he hiding the “something” which again, in birfer world, is all of the records of his very existence.

I love how birfers pick their “core” question and it's always some question that misses the question before it which makes their CORE question moot. So do you get it now, birfer blue (answer: of course NOT)……..SINCE PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS NOT HIDDEN ANYTHING, YOU CAN'T GET TO THE “WHY” PART OF YOUR BIRFER MADNESS. And finally, there is nothing simple or elegant about you birfers……you're all just loons……..entertaining, yes, but loons nonetheless…….

At least he managed to spell the word 'Constitution' correctly.

He’s a birther, so the answer to your question is a resounding ‘yes.’

“I can accept a birth certificate authenticated by the State of Hawaii, when I see it”

So what have you been complaining all along about. All you have to do is visit Obama's personal web site and then you can abandon this silly conspiracy theory. It will take you less than a minute.

You never answered the question:

Should we then that like your seven year old son that you will hold on your disillusion and that you will never be convinced otherwise?

The Hawaiian “long-form” when it was used said Certification of Live Birth. Keep up your disillusion.

Here is another question.

Why do you refuse to accept the word of the State of Hawaii that Barack Obama's is a natural-born citizen, and that they have his birth records?

Re-read your comment. Your comment is a prime example of why birtherism and your position is a conspiracy theory.

No proof not even conjecture. Illogically inconsistent. You are spending to much time trying to argue away the facts. Maybe you should try something easier that fiction, even a TV drama isn’t that complicated.

What makes you illiterate on American law is that America does recognize dual-citizen. However, no where in American law does it state that an American by birth isn't a natural born citizen. Keep making stuff up, this is more engaging that looking at the genuine Hawaiian birth certificate of the president of the US of A.

This is all about the strength of the US Constitution.

Yes and based on the US constitution and American law Obama is a natural born citizen of America.

End of story.

Borderraven are you confused or just disillusioned.

Having the opportunity to go to Kenya for the summer break is nothing more than conjecture. A high probability means absolutely nothing after an event has occurred.

You are more interesting in finding any argument to dismiss an authenticated birth certificate than realizing that the only person you are confusing is yourself.

Didn’t you know that summer started in June and went until December. It is called Season Saving Time. The more times I read the original comment the less sense it makes. I am not taking about factually, which it lacks, but logically. Conspiracy theory nuts are just nuts.

What makes him illiterate on American law is the fact that he's illiterate.

And yet he lectures people who actually *are* well-versed in their fields on how wrong they are, all the while demonstrating how ignorant, ill-educated, and flat-out stupid he is.

“Season Saving Time.”

I like it. I *like* it.

My say in the matter! Who gives a shit? I don`t believe a word Obama says or reads.He is covering up information that every one knows will damage him ,politically. But so far he has done enough damage to himself that he will not run again in 2012.He also has a sickness called NPD. Look it up.The truth will come out soon enough,one way or another,and one side or the other will be saying “I told you so”. Now You can bet on this,NO BIRTHER OR ANTI-BIRTHER IS GOING AWAY. Reading all your arguments were interesting for a while ,but got boring ,so I just decided to exit. Have a nice day.

BR: “Would a cop accept what you print from your printer?”

No, but he WOULD accept a drivers license printed by the state with an official state seal. The driver’s license doesn’t contain all the information that the state has on record, just the important facts…like you are able to drive. That is the exact same thing as Obama’s COLB and would be accepted.

I cannot help it if you choose to accept the lesser truth, but the truth is you have not seen a certified copy of Obama's original birth certificate, but you accept an original, laser-printed document, containing abstract data, as the full truth.
The facts of your low intelligence, are only emphasized by tour repeated failure to see the difference.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! You complete idiot, borderraven. By your standards, you would bring the country to a standstill, since nobody would be able to accept state issued birth certificates! In your world, Texas could deny anyone from Colorado the right to get a license, a home, and a multitude of other services…since you would not accept a state issued BC from another state, but only the original. You are such an A$$!!! And a HUGE joke!!! BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

BTW, who, in your mind, certifies birth certificates? The issuing state?

Let's see…

Run-on sentence? Check.
Misuse of “but” to create said run-on sentence. Check.
Unnecessary comma between “intelligence” and “are.” Check.
Misspelling of “your” as “tour.” Check.

Evidence that Borderraven has the reading and writing ability of a fourth grader? Check.

Possibility that Borderraven has the language skills of a ten year old? Strong.

Let's see…

Run-on sentence? Check.
Misuse of “but” to create said run-on sentence. Check.
Unnecessary comma between “intelligence” and “are.” Check.
Misspelling of “your” as “tour.” Check.

Evidence that Borderraven has the reading and writing ability of a fourth grader? Check.

Possibility that Borderraven has the language skills of a ten year old? Strong.

My bad. It was Stanley Ann Dunham who was born on November 29, 1942.OK? I think classes could have been scheduled to start in September. At any rate, it is feasible for a newlywed couple to travel to Kenya on a school break, and get caught up in travel complicated by a pregnancy.

My bad. It was Stanley Ann Dunham who was born on November 29, 1942.OK? I think classes could have been scheduled to start in September. At any rate, it is feasible for a newlywed couple to travel to Kenya on a school break, and get caught up in travel complicated by a pregnancy.

Feasible? As long as you ignore the facts. The complications were the ability to travel while that pregnant, the money to travel as poor college students, the fact that Obama’s birth is recorded in Hawaii, the fact that his father was never in Kenya during that time period, the fact…well now where are your facts that it did, in fact, happen? You make up a piece of fiction, with no facts.

Feasible? As long as you ignore the facts. The complications were the ability to travel while that pregnant, the money to travel as poor college students, the fact that Obama’s birth is recorded in Hawaii, the fact that his father was never in Kenya during that time period, the fact…well now where are your facts that it did, in fact, happen? You make up a piece of fiction, with no facts.

No, Jim. Under California law, a citizen of another US state is recognized by presence in California, as a citizen of California.

And, how would a person go about proving they were a citizen of another state? Maybe show a copy of their COLB if they're from Hawaii? But, now you won't accept a COLB unless it has been certified by…who? You won't accept anything printed by another state, I guess, since you've got to personally see the original. Slippery slope you're creating there border.

The documents seen up to now, on FactCheck is not a certified true copy of the original vault copy birth certificate of Barack Hussein Obama II.

You are accepting as full truth and proof, what is only a laser-printed document, containing scan abstracted data, purpotedly from the original vault copy birth certificate of Barack Hussein Obama II, when in fact it is only a half-truth, if not a lie.

The fact that you are content at following half-truths and lies only marks you as a fool.

The documents seen up to now, on FactCheck is not a certified true copy of the original vault copy birth certificate of Barack Hussein Obama II.

You are accepting as full truth and proof, what is only a laser-printed document, containing scan abstracted data, purpotedly from the original vault copy birth certificate of Barack Hussein Obama II, when in fact it is only a half-truth, if not a lie.

The fact that you are content at following half-truths and lies only marks you as a fool.

Excuse me, border, you have yet to PROVE that they are half-truths and lies. All documentation and official statements say Obama was born in Hawaii and is our legal President. All you’ve offered up are a bunch of half-baked theories with nothing to back them up. So, the only one spewing half-truths and lies are you. Now, you got anything other than the BS you make up? Or, you going to finally come clean as to the real reason you didn’t want Obama as President?

xcott, the document that FactCheck claimed to have examined:
1. Was not the original vault copy, because Hawaii law restricts access to that document.
2. Is not a photocopy of the original vault copy because, you can see photos of the Nordyke twins and that of Edith Coats documents, if you care to know what the original Obama document should look like.
http://passportsusa.com/?page_id=209
3. Is nothing but a laser-printed, boiler-plate form, containing selected data, abstracted from the original, but it is not all of the data which can only be found on the original or a certified photocopy of the original.

People lose their copy of a birth certificate all the time, however the states retain old documents in their archives.
Obama's can be photocopied and a certified copy can be brought to Congress and into court.

Oh, you like listing reasons now.
1) The BC Obama showed followed all legal standards set for by the US Government. It is a legal and binding document acceptable in all 50 states and by the federal government
2) He doesn't need to present it anywhere, nobody from either of those branches has asked him to produce it. Why? Because they all know Obama was born in Hawaii and you folks are quacks.
3) The one fact that is on the COLB that has been shown is that Obama was born in Hawaii. You have no proof he wasn't. The rest of the info, you have no legal or ethical right to. Go back and cry in your fruit loops.

Jim, as I have said before, I am open to the idea he was born in either Hawaii or Kenya. I don't dispute a Hawaii birth, but I see better evidence of a Kenya birth.

OK, now for the Hawaii birth, do you dispute his father was an alien?

Do you agree “children born to citizens of the USA are natural born citizens”?

Do you then conclude, that a child born to a citizen and an alien, is a natural born citizen?

It does not matter what you or I conclude, it matters what the law is. And, the law states, if you were born here you are a citizen. Furthermore, there are only 2 type of citizens, Naturalized and not naturalized (natural born).

But, what is even funnier, is what is your evidence of Obama being born in Kenya? An edited comment by Obama's grandmother? 2 proven fake birth certificates from Kenya? A total lack of any official statement that Obama's father or mother were ever near Kenya during that time? Made up fiction in your own mind? You've got no evidence that Obama was born in Kenya…except in your sick imagination.

States united under the US Constitution Article 4 Section 2.

“The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.”

Therefore, state laws determine citizenship within the state.

Hawaii Revised Statutes, recognize:

“And all citizens of the United States resident in the Hawaiian Islands who were resident there on or since August twelfth, eighteen hundred and ninety-eight and all the citizens of the United States who shall hereafter reside in the Territory of Hawaii for one year shall be citizens of the Territory of Hawaii.”

“Under Art. 17, §1, of the Const. of 1894 (adapted from the 14th Am. of the U.S. Const.) all persons born or naturalized in the Hawaiian Islands and subject to the jurisdiction of the Republic of Hawaii were citizens thereof.”

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol01_…

Did Stanley Ann Dunham lose US citizenship by marriage to the British citizen Barack Hussein Obama, per 8 US Code 1435?

8 US Code 1435
(a) Requirements

Any person formerly a citizen of the United States who (1) prior to
September 22, 1922, lost United States citizenship by marriage to an
alien, or by the loss of United States citizenship of such person's
spouse, or (2) on or after September 22, 1922, lost United States
citizenship by marriage to an alien ineligible to citizenship, may if no
other nationality was acquired by an affirmative act of such person
other than by marriage be naturalized upon compliance with all
requirements of this subchapter, except– …

“Is nothing but a laser-printed, boiler-plate form, containing selected data, abstracted from the original”

That's what a birth certificate IS. I just ordered a birth certificate to get a marriage license. What I got in the mail was a laser printed “boilerplate” form containing selected data abstracted from my vital records.

And seriously, what's wrong with a birth certificate being “boilerplate”? It's a form with your birth information.

How can you see “better evidence,” when the birth certificate says Honolulu and no other document says otherwise?

xcott, the Nordyke twins birth certificates you can see online are also a “boiler-plate form”, but they are a photocopy of the original.

Where is a certified copy of Obama's original?

When can we see it?

You cannot deny it exists, yet you are satisfied with his abstracted document. Isn't it important to challenge the qualifications of a candidate and verify his eligibility and authority?

A. No.

B. The President was born in Honolulu, which makes him natural born regardless.

C. Stop posting things you clearly don't understand.

The certified copy of Obama's original is the one shown on fact-check. It is the one given by Hawaii, complete with raised seal and the statement on the bottom, stating it is a legal representation of the data on file.

The candidate was challenged and elected by a majority of the people, majority of the Electoral College, and legally seated by congress. Good luck in 2012, since that's all you have to look forward to.

Classes *did* start in September, you moron.

Jim, I am not discounting a Kenya birth, because the Lucas Smith footprint document has yet to be examined. Yes, the Bomford document was claimed and demonstrated by an online blogger to be a fake, using a 2 Shilling coins as a raised seal, however, the document held by Orly Taitz, should face forensic examination, to compare the raised seal with a 2 shilling coin.

But, as I said before, I don't rule out either birth scenario Hawaii or Kenya.

As for the law I found 8 USC 1435 and shared it above.

I’ve been following this discussion for quite some time now, and believe me, Jim isn’t the fool.

*rolls eyes*

You really don't know how the law works, do you?

Let’s see:

ellid:

1. lamer

1. There's no evidence at all for the President being born in Kenya. Zero. None. Nada.

2. A child born in the United States, except for the child of a diplomat, is a natural born American citizen. You may not like this, but it's the law, and your refusal to accept this makes you look even more ridiculous than usual.

You don't rule it out, because evidence doesn't have any meaning to you. As for the law you stated above, you've never shown that Stanley Ann Durham ever gave up her US citizenship before Obama was born. Just as you've never shown she was out of the country any time before he was born. Just as you've never shown any proof of any of your accusations. BS is still BS and you're still full of it!

“His abstracted document” makes no sense.

“Eligibility and AUTHORITY????” What?

Go strap that your refrigerator to your back and go hiking for a couple of months, old cock. Maybe you'll learn to spell and punctuate correctly while you're “patrolling the border.”

The footprint birth certificate was such an obvious forgery that any document examiner who was presented with it would drop dead laughing.

Than what? You?

AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

*gasps for breath*

Of course I am satisfied with the birth certificate issued by the state of Hawaii. It's an official document establishing the president's birthplace, confirmed by the state department of health.

I don't understand why people need to inspect the department of health records, if the issued certificate is proof of birth.

When I present my ID to buy beer, nobody insists on seeing my original drivers licence from 1989, or a paper record from the IL dept of motor vehicles.

He was born to two aliens, so as per SCOTUS in Wong Kim Ark he may be a citizen under the laws of 1898, he was born in 1961, so he is subject to the laws that were effective in 1961.

Honolulu may be his birthplace, but he is a jus sanguinis a British citizen per 8USC1435, since both parents were British..

The 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees citizenship at birth to almost all individuals born in the United States or in U.S. jurisdictions, according to the principle of jus soli. Certain individuals born in the United States, such as children of foreign heads of state or children of foreign diplomats, do not obtain U.S. citizenship under jus soli.

The mention of “children of foreign heads of state or children of foreign diplomats” are only two examples of aliens present in the USA, who owe allegiance to a foreign state. Example California Government code 241 says children born to aliens are not state citizens.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Borderraven, you are such a fricken joke!!! LMAO!!!

Obama doesn't need to be a citizen of California…nor is any part of his life covered by California laws. Nor does California laws cover US citizenship. You are getting so pathetically desperate, it's the funniest on-going joke out there! And, again, we DON'T CARE about his parents citizenship, we didn't elect them. He was born in the US, he's eligible, he's been elected, and you still sound like a bigot!

Um, Gerry? Honolulu is in HAWAII, not California. Hawaiian law applies.

Also, Barack Obama Sr. was not a diplomat, Stanley Dunham never surrendered her American citizenship, and you're still a semi-literate buffoon.

And this disproves that Obama is a natural-born citizen??? You quote mine and just don’t understand the mean of the text or the context in which it should be used.

You embarrass yourself over and over again. We still have a Hawaii Certification of Birth as issued by the State of Hawaii Department of Health that proves the Barack H. Obama is a natural born citizen of America.

You are utterly silly. Do you wonder when this law was changed? Or, is it another one of your fabrication?

Anthony, 8USC1435 has not been changed or repealed and was in effect in February 1961 when Obama Sr. and Ann Dunham married. The law was in effect when Barack Hussein Obama II, was born. It is in effect today.

Jim, you are so fucking ignorant of the 14th Amendment. All you fucking read is the “born in the USA” and you are granting citizenship. You ignore the conjunction and the jurisdiction clause “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof”. I quote California laws as examples of the interpretation of the 14th Amendment. California recognizes jurisdiction is limited to the duration a person is present in the state, for law enforcement purposes, but not to the extent of granting citizenship to children born to aliens.

This is important for immigration, nationality and for both state and national sovereignty. Existing laws are not being enforced, and or our legislatures have been subverted, and are passing useless laws. Everyday a pregnant alien, either a legal tourist or an illegal, may give birth in the USA. The national crisis is created when every child born in the USA is automatically considered to be a US citizen, while the jurisdiction clause is ignored. The fact that you will grant NBC merely on the basis of jus solis, is evidence of the ignorance that is causing the national immigration crisis. Please pay your taxes, they just went up.

Jim you display gross ignorance.

Jim, the only thing “original” about the document shown on FactCheck, is the fact that it originated out of a laser-printer.

Obama's original has not been shown, nor has a certified copy of the original.

But, arguing with you is like talking to a wall.

Even if Stanley Dunham lost her American citizenship through her marriage (which she didn't), the President was born in Hawaii, making him natural born.

And the box score for our gallant Minuteman as he lumbers about taking pictures of accidents, harassing people on their way to church, and generally making an ass of himself:

Still goose eggs.

From gratuitous profanity to a complete misreading of the law to an irrelevant references to taxes going up, this post perfectly sums up the heap of protoplasm calling itself Borderraven.

Better than a morbid fascination with police cars and harassing people on their way to church, I'd say.

Why don't you film a trainwreck and post the results of your Youtube channel? Orly Taitz's disbarment hearing should be enchanting, yet mysterious enough even for you.

I'm sure you've seen the video of borderraven waddling around video taping young girls in their bathing suits. He didn't think there was anything wrong with it. He posted it on YouTube and they removed it.

borderraven thinks he's a Constitutional scholar. In reality, he's just a fat pervert that likes to watch young girls in their swim suits.

Just love the way birthtards change things. Now both of his parents were aliens. AMAZING!

Really borderraven, you have so little understanding of the law it's really pathetic. The limits you advocate are nowhere in the US Constitution or law. However, it has been addressed by the SCOTUS.

From KWA: “Nothing is better settled at the common law than the doctrine that the children, even of aliens, born in a country while the parents are resident there under the protection of the government and owing a temporary allegiance thereto, are subjects by birth.”

Or, for the thick-headed fools who have no understanding of where we came from and how our laws were formed, the last part would read “are citizens by birth.”

Furthermore: In United States v. Rhodes (1866), Mr. Justice Swayne, sitting in the Circuit Court, said:

“All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Birth and allegiance go together. Such is the rule of the common law, and it is the common law of this country, as well as of England. . . . We find no warrant for the opinion that this great principle of the common law has ever been changed in the United States. It has always obtained here with the same vigor, and subject only to the same exceptions, since as before the Revolution.”

And: The Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts, speaking by Mr. Justice (afterwards Chief Justice) Sewall, early held that the determination of the question whether a man was a citizen or an alien was “to be governed altogether by the principles of the common law,” and that it was established, with few exceptions,

“that a man born within the jurisdiction of the common law is a citizen of the country wherein he is born. By this circumstance of his birth, he is subjected to the duty of allegiance which is claimed and enforced by the sovereign of his native land, and becomes reciprocally entitled to the protection of that sovereign, and to the other rights and advantages which are included in the term 'citizenship.'”

The only 2 exceptions are born to a foreign diplomat, or a conqueror. Since Obama's father was neither, and his mother was an american citizen, you eat sh*t!

And, since there are only 2 types of citizens recognized by our country, naturalized and not-naturalized (got that from a Constitutional Scholar), then Obama is and will be our legally elected president.

You said you wanted to see a certified copy. That COLB has been certified by the state of Hawaii. That's why it has the raised seal. That's why it is acceptable in all 50 states and the Federal government. You can't get more certified. BTW, who would you have going around certifying millions of birth certificates if you won't accept one from the state? You've never answered that question because you realize it is an impossible task and why our governments came up with this system for reporting vital statistics from the states. And, if the system has been good enough for this many years, just because a bigot can't accept it doesn't mean the majority of voters can't make up their own minds.

BR: “xcott, the Nordyke twins birth certificates you can see online are also a “boiler-plate form”, but they are a photocopy of the original.”

And how do you know this? When was it certified and by whom? Who's to say that they aren't fakes provided to throw you off the track. If they haven't been certified, then they aren't real…by YOUR standards. So, are you going to demand that the Nordyke twins order new ones to prove the facts provided on the non-certified ones on-line? But, then they'd get copies just like Obama's which would shoot you down again.

Even better is the one where he and his buddies start harassing this woman on her way to church.

There's also this inexplicable few seconds of footage where Gerry, who seems to have added “I can drive like Michael Schumacher while filming the cars whooshing by me on the freeway” to his list of delusions, manages to catch about two seconds of a couple of people yelling at him as they drive past at high speeds. Our worthy Patriot and Minuteman, who seems to love the law except when it applies to him, risks himself and all the cars around him to catch this deathless moment with a handheld camera that veers and shudders wildly as he struggles to control it and the moving car.

I'm amazed that no one reported him to the highway patrol that day….

Is it still up somewhere? It was really, really vile.

And hikes seven miles with a 200 pound pack. Don't forget that.

Does this mean Barack Obama Sr. and Stanley Dunham were actually Sarek and Amanda?

BWAHAHAHA!!! Ignorance is YOUR game br, and you prove it every time you post!

Here’s what’s funny, you keep begging for a “certified” birth certificate from Hawaii. Well, who certifies birth certificates? Why, the issuing state, of course. So when they show they have “certified” Obama’s birth in Hawaii by issuing a birth certificate, you say you’ll only accept a “certified” birth certificate. Now, they’ve “certified” his birth in Hawaii by issuing the COLB and stating he was born there, you want additional “certification”. But, since you won’t accept the way Hawaii has chosen to “certify” their citizens births there, you want someone else to “certify” that Obama was born there. And yet, who would you get to “certify” that the records are true and accurate but the issuer? But, what is even funnier, is you couldn’t define what a birth certificate is if your life depended upon it. BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Keep typing, you’re like the 3 stooges rolled all into one and just keep slapping yourself around.

BR: “Jim, the only thing “original” about the document shown on FactCheck, is the fact that it originated out of a laser-printer.”

I know, you’re the kind of bigot who wouldn’t accept a black man’s college diploma because it wasn’t printed on “sheepskin”, aren’t you border.

BR: “BTW, I have not seen any official statements that the vault copy has been destroyed or lost, or that Obama cannot authorize its release.”

But, you HAVE seen an official statement stating Obama was born in Hawaii. So, since that is what this is all about, you can graciously accept what you asked for…an official statement that is both factual and true. If so, you can stop typing anytime.

Another prime example of quote mining. It seems that the latter is the case. The section is about Former citizens regaining citizenship. It is right their in the title. Also, the last amendment was made in 1994. Yeah, you are silly.

Both his parents were never British citizens. A person who is born in one of the 50 states of America automatically are American citizens. Those are the laws of America.

You are utterly paranoid. Thankfully, American law doesn't dependent on a persons insecurity. This is whether they are pushing a conspiracy theory or not.

Ignorance, is how you attempt to distort American law without realizing it has absolutely no relevance to your conspiracy theory.

Let us know a little secret. It is the State of Hawaii that has jurisdiction over Hawaiian birther certificates. They has stated that Obama’s birther records are authentic, thus he is a natural born citizen. End of story.

I am not discounting that you are a dalek. The law that you quote is about people regaining their American citizenship.

EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!

So much FAIL conveniently located in one place. Borderraving is nothing if not efficient.

Birthers talking about the law reminds me of the scene in 'Animal Farm' when the pigs put on shoes and try to start walking on two legs. The only difference is that the pigs were eventually able to pull it off. The birthers? Not so much.

Y'know, if Americans could lose their citizenship simply by marrying non-citizens, then all of the thousands of GIs who have married noncitizen women would all have to either leave the country or apply for green cards.

Come to think of it, I believe Jeb Bush married a Mexican woman. I guess ole Jeb had better get a Visa or get out.

Our worthy Minuteman and would-be auteur strongly reminds me of the legendary Jon Douglas West, a right-wing anti-Semite who spent a couple of years in the 1980s stalking author Harlan Ellison. West ended up in jail on weapons and explosives charges, but I believe that Ellison has kept an eye on him to this day, just in case.

As for Borderraven, you need to check out the film on his Youtube channel of him filming a couple of people in one of the other cars. To say that it's a miracle he didn't kill anyone is putting it mildly; I haven't seen a camera zigzag that way since the last time I watched The French Connection.

Only women lose US citizenship through marriage to an alien.

I was standing on a public street. In the USA, we have the right to take pictures and video, where there is no expectation of privacy. I am not in control of how mommies and daddies let their children dress as they run loose in public, and I don't need to ask permission before taking pictures or video in public places. Read the First Fourth Amendments. btw I removed the video, because of all of the ignorant comments, from fools not versed in human rights, but who seem eager to diminish them.
go to http://www.rawa.org and view videos of how Taleban treat women who bare a naked foot in public. Perhaps ellid, would prefer the burkha as required attire.

Embarrassing the church that shelters illegal aliens is what I will do to defend my country from an illegal invasion.

Your attempts to intimidate or embarrass me into silence or any of your attempts to attack my freedom of expression or enjoyment of my human rights are futile.

Well, BR I'm so happy you appreciate your rights. Now, when are you going to support Obama's right to be elected president as an American citizen, since you have no proof of any of your accusations? Or, in your world, are women and blacks somehow lesser people who don't deserve the same rights?

Uh, Gerry? For all your sterling research/cut-and-paste-you-don't-understand, you missed a couple of crucial facts:

1. This applied only to women who married Asians, who were ineligible for citizenship. Barack Obama St., as you and other birthers have repeatedly pointed out, was a citizen of Kenya at the time of the President's birth, and thus held a British passport. As such he was eligible for American citizenship.

2. The law in question, the Cable Act, was repealed in 1936, six years before Stanley Dunham was even born and a full quarter century before her first marriage. That some laws still have language referring to it does not change this.

In short, you are, as usual, wrong.

Jim, not being as gullible as you, I'll withhold declaring Obama eligible to be president, until after all of the evidence gas been presented and examined. I'm waiting for a certified copy of the vault copy original vital statistic record, to be presented in court.

No, you didn't remove the video. It was removed FOR you by Youtube. Given that company's general standards, this speaks volumes about the true nature of your video.

Liar.

Trespassing on private property and screaming at an elderly woman is not defending anything except your right to be a rude, obnoxious jerk.

As for embarrassing you, you're doing a fine job of that all by yourself.

“Evidence gas”?

BWAHAHAHAHAAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Br, you aren't gullible, your just a plain stupid bigot. Let's see, also a pedophile, a jerk, and a big ugly galoot. You have no evidence and you won't accept the evidence right in front of you…of course, for someone who can't even see his feet that's understandable. You enjoy your wait…we'll see what happens in the next election.

Anthony, read it again. “Former citizens regaining citizenship” means the woman lost citizenship through marriage and 8USC1435, is the law governing how they can regain citizenship. The law was in effect in 1961 when Obama was born.

The only thing embarrassing is the way you waddle around with your camcorder.

Hey Br, try again.

Cable Act: “Former immigration laws prior to 1922 did not make reference to the alien husband's race.[1] However, The Cable Act of 1922 guaranteed independent female citizenship only to women who were married to “alien[s] eligible to naturalization”.[2] At the time of the law's passage, Asian aliens were not considered to be racially eligible for U.S. citizenship.[3][4] As such, the Cable Act only partially reversed previous policies, granting independent female citizenship only to women who married non-Asians. The Cable Act effectively revoked the U.S. citizenship of any woman who married an Asian alien.”

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! an idiot trying to quote laws, isn't that rich. Maybe you and Orly should get together, maybe then you could have 1 working brain cell between you.

I have the text from another post from another news story where you were going to protest YouTube's removal of that video. Hmmm. Maybe I should refresh your memory.

http://www.youtube.com/user/borderraven this is his youtube account !!!! tell that bastard what's up .
Border Raven is sick or what ?

http://fliiby.com/file/354917/oz62eg979k.html

You'll be waiting a long time, pervert.

Just as much as the president's first name is Steve.

The 200 pound pack is in the front right under his man tits.

Even if this was still the law, it would never survive constitutional challenge. Equality under the law and all.

As I pointed out elsewhere, the law you are basing this on, the Cable Act, a) was directed specifically at women who married ASIANS, who were not eligible for American citizenship (unlike Barack Obama Sr., who had a British passport in 1961), and b) THE LAW WAS REPEALED IN 1936 YOU BRAINLESS WASTE OF OXYGEN.

American women do not lose their citizenship upon marriage to a foreigner in 1961. Period. Anything you say to the contrary is WRONG.

True. Tripping over his own feet and actually rolling over a couple of times in the street was almost amusing in a rather pathetic way.

Not only stupid, racist, and ill-mannered, but a liar. Typical birther.

The actress who played Amanda was once asked what Spock's human first name was. Her response:

“Harold.”

Really? I thought that was Dr. Jonas Venture, Jr.

I would say that the answer to your second question is “yes,” with the proviso that it be extended to anyone born south of the Mexican border.

This is true. It would violate Equal Protection. However I get the feeling that our real laws are no match for borderraving's made-up laws.

I'm starting to think that borderraven isn't even real. He can't be because NO ONE can be this fucking dense. It's like debating a cartoon…I literally feel like I'm explaining things like law and logic to Peter Griffin or Homer Simpson.

We're being punk'd. I just know it.

That's definitely a new twist on the birther mythos. Life must be so much easier for the birthers than it is for us sane people, since they don't have to worry about any of that pesky sanity getting in the way.

MACKENZIE v. HARE, 239 U.S. 299 (1915)

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.p…

'The plaintiff was born and ever since has resided in the state of California. On August 14, 1909, being then a resident and citizen of this state and of the United States, she was lawfully married to Gordon Mackenzie, a native and subject of the kingdom of Great Britain. He had resided in California prior to that time, still resides here, and it is his intention to make this state his permanent residence. He has not become naturalized as a citizen of the United States and it does not appear that he intends to do so. Ever since their marriage the plaintiff and her husband have lived together as husband and wife. On January 22, 1913, she applied to the defendants to be registered as a voter. She was then over the age of twenty-one years and had resided in San Francisco for more than ninety days. Registration was refused to her on the ground that, by reason of her marriage to Gordon Mackenzie, a subject of Great Britain, she thereupon took the nationality of her husband and ceased to be a citizen of the United States.'

Hey Br, try again.

That law was repealed in 1922, after the case you cite. So, it has been overturned. Is that all you got, overturned cases? No wonder you're such a loser.

Cable Act: “Former immigration laws prior to 1922 did not make reference to the alien husband's race.[1] However, The Cable Act of 1922 guaranteed independent female citizenship only to women who were married to “alien[s] eligible to naturalization”.[2] At the time of the law's passage, Asian aliens were not considered to be racially eligible for U.S. citizenship.[3][4] As such, the Cable Act only partially reversed previous policies, granting independent female citizenship only to women who married non-Asians. The Cable Act effectively revoked the U.S. citizenship of any woman who married an Asian alien.”

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! an idiot trying to quote laws, isn't that rich. Maybe you and Orly should get together, maybe then you could have 1 working brain cell between you.

I think it's funny how you think that your “declaring” the President to be eligible for the office that he already holds has any effect on him holding the office.

I honestly don't know whether that's funny or sad.

You logic is so disjoint from reality I can see the padded van with a special gold straight-jacket coming to your from door. The only relevance that your comment has is to your lose of grip on reality.

Yes, and what does a woman losing her citizenship has to do with Obama being a natural-born citizen. Absolutely, nothing.

You must be what 8 years old. Maybe 9 years old tops. Does your parents know that you are using a computer with proper supervision? (This has the same logic, and relevance as your nonsensical comment).

The only invasion are those gremlins that have been removing your brain cells one by one. The effects are quite apparent.

Don't understand what human rights have to do with his lies, nor freedom of expression. However, I think he is referring to freedom of speak. Anyways, he seems very confused about all 3 issues.

Clap. Clap. Clap.

And what does your word has relevance on the fact that Obama is the president.

Yes, you are gullible as you seem to honestly believe that typing on your computer will have any effect on any political leader. Sorry, we live in a democracy and the majority has spoken.

bird-goes-splat didn't read it, or he is playing ignorant.

Is this a further attempt by you to convince everyone that you have lost your grip on reality. Honestly, we already know that you a past help.

This has no relevance at all to Stanley Ann Dunham, who was born almost thirty years later, married almost fifty years later, and never gave up her American citizenship.

Are you simply grabbing cases at random and posting them regardless of whether they were superseded by later law?

I think he's simply not very bright. He certainly seems to be terrified of *something*, not that any of these alleged violations of his rights prevents him from yelling in people's faces, photographing traffic accidents and underage girls, and generally being a lout.

Remember, this is the man who thinks that two laughable forgeries are authentic proof that President Obama was born in Mombasa (which wasn't even part of Kenya in 1961, but let it not be said that Borderraven ever let facts get in his way).

Personally, I think that his hatred for aliens (legal or not) is so great that he hates the President for having a non-citizen father.

They remind me of little children playing. No matter what the reality is the fashion a world all their own. Everything they have presented have no relevance, a gross misrepresentation or out right lies.

Found it. “The Act of March 3, 1931 (46 Statutes at Large 1511), …, the provision under which a U.S. citizen woman lost her citizenship solely by marriage to an alien ineligible for U.S. citizenship was eliminated … “

All the damage done by the act of 1907 was corrected “The Immigration and Nationality Technical Correction Act of 1994, Public Law 103-416 (108 Statute at Large), October 25, 1994“

His arguments have no relevance and are a gross misrepresentation of the facts. Having dealt with this same behavior before in the past is the reason that I know when his is making things up.

The problem isn't a lack of intelligence. It is a lack of a sense of reality.

The problem isn't a lack of intelligence. It is a lack of a sense of reality.

He'll probably call me a bitch again, or start swearing. I am *very* glad that I don't live next to him, because someone with his temper, hatred of women and non-whites, and arrogance would be a horrible neighbor.

THIS.

Stanley Dunham was an American, you suet-brained moron. The law you are relying on was repealed six years before she was even born, as anyone with a computer would know after a minute's research.

Do you *try* to be this stupid?

Unfortunately, Borderraven is very, very really. Check out his Youtube channel, his comments on other web sites, his horrid little excuse for a blog, and his Twitter feed. He really *is* a stupid, obnoxious, badly educated bigot who thinks that he’s right and the rest of the world is wrong.

It isn't that he is making up laws, is that he is quote mining. He ignores any statues that invalidate the laws, or he misapplies it. Bird-goes-splat (BGS) is very good at presenting arguments that just seem to be out of step with current legal realities. If you suspect something is wrong, it is because it is.

Pointing out that you were a reckless driver is not an attempt to embarrass you. It is an attempt to warn other drivers to give you a very wide berth before you try to photograph them, lose control of whatever gas guzzling SUV you use to transport yourself and your 200 pack, and crash.

As for your “defense of America” – a church? Really, Gerry? Yelling at a woman on her way to CHURCH furthers the cause of freedom? Screaming at a perfect stranger and trespassing on land belonging to her house of worship? Whatever happened to private property, Gerry? Or freedom to worship without being harassed? Why don't THOSE rights count? Is it because your right to act like a spoiled brat is more important?

If you want to protest a church sheltering legal immigrants, DO IT ON THE SIDEWALK AND LEAVE THE CHURCH MEMBERS ALONE, YOU SUET-BRAINED LUMP. All you've done is make yourself look like a bully, not a patriot.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

I'm not making things up. I share what I discover.

The fact a law enacted in 1907 or 1922 was in effect on August 4, 1961, when Obama was born, still stands.

On March 2, 1907, the 59th Congress, 2nd Session:
“Expatriation Bill passed by house Jan 21, 1907; by senate March 1, 1907;approved March 2, 1907. (See “Citizenship in the United States.”) http://bit.ly/a3kBII
http://books.google.com/books?id=Y24TAAAAYAAJ&p…
The Chicago daily news almanac and year book for …, Volume 24

Jim,

MACKENZIE v. HARE, 239 U.S. 299 (1915) was quoted in PEREZ v. BROWNELL, 356 U.S. 44 (1958)

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.p…

MACKENZIE v. HARE, 239 U.S. 299 (1915) directly quotes a situation like Obama's parents, making him like Wong Kim Ark, in which SCOTUS only declared a child born to two aliens 14th Amendment citizen, but never said he was NBC, as you fantasize.

And has been pointed out to you over and over again, THE LAW IT REFERS TO WAS REPEALED IN 1936. AMERICAN WOMEN WHO MARRY NON-CITIZENS DO NOT LOSE THEIR CITIZENSHIP.

For the love of sweet suffering Jesus, would you learn to READ?

Completely, utterly, entirely, 100% WRONG. American women DO NOT LOSE THEIR CITIZENSHIP UPON MARRYING NON-CITIZENS!!!!!!

http://www.answers.com/topic/women-citizenship-…

The law you keep citing hasn't been valid since the 1930s. It not only wasn't valid when Stanley Dunham got married, IT WASN'T VALID BEFORE SHE WAS BORN.

And you call yourself a “legal researcher”!!!!!!

Equal Protection, means the laws protect and are applied equally.

I am not making up laws. If I find it I share. I give references, for you to confirm.

The act of a woman choosing to marry an alien male is a voluntary act, of her choosing allegiance to a foreign nation and it complicates the relationship between the USA and all nations worldwide. The laws attempt to uncomplicate international relations.

If both parents are non-citizens at the birth of the child, then we refer to Wong Kim Ark, and declare the child a 14th Amendment citizen, not an Article 2 Section 1 natural born citizen.

Isn't “14th Amendment citizen” code among racists for their refusal to accept that African Americans are real Americans? As in, “he's just a 14th Amendment citizen.”

The law itself violates equal protection anytime that it would be applied. If women who marry aliens are treated differently from men who marry aliens then the law is not applied equally, because it only strips women of their citizenship while men are unaffected.

In other words that law, on it's face, does not treat men and women equally; that's about as clear-cut a case of a violation of Equal Protection as you'll ever see.

ellid, again with your ignorance and assumptions.

I can only conclude the Bomford template was a forgery, but since neither have been forensically examined, you cannot claim they are fakes.

I don't hate aliens, but I do oppose illegal aliens in the USA.

My concern is for the US Constitution and the rule of law.

You're the one who's fantasizing, suet-brain. MacKenzie v. Harris is mentioned SOLELY to establish the history of citizenship laws. This is very, very common in legal briefs, as you would know if you'd ever been closer to an actual lawyer than Perry Mason reruns.

Not only that, not half a page later the self-same brief you so kindly linked to makes it clear that MacKenzie v. Harris WAS SUPERSEDED BY LATER LAW AND IS NO LONGER VALID. Not only are you quote-mining, you aren't even bothering to read the whole case you're citing!

Jesus Christ have mercy on your soul for being such an inveterate liar.

You know less about the law than the bagger at my supermarket, the one with Down's Syndrome.

In 1936, the Cable Act was repealed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_Act

Perez v. Brownell (1958)

“The question of the power of Congress to enact legislation depriving individuals of their American citizenship was first raised in the courts by Mackenzie v. Hare, 239 U.S. 299 . “

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.p…

Try again.

Yep, he's a “sovereign citizen” loon in addition to being a racist, a liar, and a misogynist. Aren't we all glad that this revolting traitor to America and her laws is no longer a member of our military?

In 1936, the Cable Act was repealed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_Act

You're about as patriotic as Alger Hiss, you lying traitor.

And if you go just a little bit further down the page, it's obvious that a) the case was cited solely to establish history, and b) what it describes is no longer legal.

Wrong again, lackbrain.

Does this mean that you've realized that you've been wrong all along about Stanley Dunham's citizenship?

Yep. Looks like we may finally have rooted out the true reason why Borderraven is a birther:

He refuses to accept that a black man, any black man, can be President of the United States.

Exactly, and therefor no longer applies and women no longer lose their citizenship when marrying an alien. So, Stanley Dunham never lost her citizenship. And, State laws have absolutely no bearing on US citizenship. So, you've shown again how complete your failure is to understand our country and our constitution.

BR: “I can only conclude the Bomford template was a forgery, but since neither have been forensically examined, you cannot claim they are fakes.”

And, BR, how would you forensically examine a Birth Certificate? The best way I know is to check with the issuer and see if they have the records on file. Well, the State of Hawaii states they are on file and Obama was born there.

You've never answered a very simple question…can you even define what a birth certificate is? Because, if you can't, you've just proven that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about…like we needed any more proof! BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

You really really don't want to admit that President Obama is the president, do you?
You know, earlier I watched the Youtube video of President Obama taking questions at the Republican retreat that happened a couple of weeks back. Not a single Republican shouted “where's the birth certificate” as the president took questions. And after the question period, the band played “Hail to the Chief” and all the Republican lawmakers mobbed the President for handshakes and pictures. Many had brought their children along to meet President Obama. Again, not a single birth certificate demand was flung through the air to his waiting ears.
So maybe this is just your problem.

And I checked the reference, and unlike you, I read the damn thing. And guess what?

YOU WERE WRONG.

May what you do come back to you three-fold.

You know, I wonder if he thinks that the repeal of the Cable Act means that ALL women now lose their citizenship upon marrying a non-citizen, not just women who marry Asians? He's just stupid enough to misinterpret the repeal in this way.

Well, ellid, his stupidity knows no bounds. Above he's wanting forensics to examine Obama's BC. Shows he's so stupid he doesn't even know what a birth certificate is. In fact, I've continually asked that question of every blower that's come on here and spouted their nonsense, as you well know, and not a single one can answer that. It is really sad and pathetic that he's so shallow he doesn't realize he's just waving a big flag saying “I'm a bigot!”

Very true.

SO glad I live on the other side of the country from Mr. Minuteman. OTOH, he'd last about five minutes in the purest form of democracy left, the New England town meeting, so maybe it would be amusing if he moved here for a few years and decided to practice his unique style of politics and legal research in, say, Vermont….

Did you miss the fact that the law was repealed or are you illiterate?

Why don't you just say that 1931 is before 1922? From you comment that is exactly what you are saying.

Are you stuck in a time warp, or are you still stuck in the rabbit hole. Are you having difficulties in understanding that the laws actually change or time, and some get eliminated. The law that you quote doesn't exist anymore.

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/104…

bird-goes-splat. You keep quoting antique laws, and every time research is done it is found that the law doesn't exist any more. Why do you waste your time. All you are doing is proving that you are an ignorant person. Is this true, or is a misconception?

All you are concerned with is quoting antique laws that have been superseded by new laws.

It is hard to believe that you views about foreigners and American law is true, as you continue to manipulate the truth. Your behavior indicates that you are hiding your real motives for fear you have.

Here is a present from me to you (and others) who want a better understanding of why bird-goes-splat arguments are nothing but “quote mines.”

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/104…

You just don't understand what you are talking about do you. You are excellent at quote mining, but horrible about understand content.

You don’t even understand what actually happened. Please keep ignoring changes to laws up until now. You are making us having a better understand of the issues, and how wrong birthers are.

He refuses to accept that the sun raises everyday.

APPENDIX???? Is that the best he can do?

*bangs head on desk*

A very interesting history of citizenship laws as they relate to women.

So if a man voluntarily choose to marry an alien, wouldn't that “complicate the relationship between the USA and all nations?”
Equality under the law. If there is a diffferent standard for men and women, there has to be a good reason.
I doubt that the most skilled lawyer could make the case for why there is a compelling reason to treat women who marry differently from men who marry.

He is quote an out of date laws that don't exist anywhere in American statutes. However, you have pointed out the reasons why the laws were repealed.

He also likes to take that rights and freedoms away from people he thinks are inferior to him then screams bloody murder when the same is done to him. Hypocrite would be too nice a name for him, bigot fits so much better.

You're not making things up, you just have no ability to completely read what you post and a total lack of understanding of what you post. Just like a few months ago when you posted the link to Perkins V. Elg. You thought you had a smoking gun. But, in truth, what you posted HELPED Obama's claim by showing that the parents changing citizenship had no affect on the citizenship of the children and further strengthened his hold. So let's take a look at your scorecard
1) Citing cases that help Obama's claim
2) Citing cases that are no longer valid or in force
3) Making up lies and getting caught
4) Accepting anti-Obama evidence without proof
5) Ignoring evidence when it doesn't fit your position
Heck BR, you've done more to STRENGTHEN Obama's position than any pro-Obama supporter could ever do. You've been a bigger help to Obama and a bigger detriment to the blower movement than even Weigel. Keep up the good work! And, in 2012, when Obama runs for re-election you can vote for him…since your so dumb you'd probably think that putting an 'X' next to his name means you don't want him! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

ellid: “Even better is the one where he and his buddies start screaming at this poor woman on her way to church. “Rude” doesn’t begin to cover it.”

Wait a minute, are you saying this large man who’s purportedly defending our constitution and country against foreign invasion needs backup to go after A LITTLE OLD LADY!?!?!?! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I guess he’s afraid she’d kick his a$$.

I'm standing up for the laws of the time as they apply to Obama's birth.

That's ironic, when you consider how the 14th Amendment benefited former slaves.

But, answer me this, under current laws, are you a citizen of the state you were born in and the state you now reside in?

Does the form of your birth certificate name the state you were born in?

Does your birth certificate say “United States Birth Certificate”?

Are you a citizen of a “sovereign state” or are you a “federal citizen” of the United States?

After all you claim to have been born in the “United States”, but weren't you, in reality, born in a “sovereign state” united into a “federal corporation”, by the US Constitution?

It is not the color of skin that we judge, but the content of character. You, my lady, are blinded by skin color and charisma, but ignorant of the man's character. You admired the beauty of the rose, but ignore the the thorns.

No, I don't. The Sun rises over there.

No, I don't. The Sun rises over there.

No you aren't. You're just trying to find anything that follows your bigoted position and hope no one will notice that either the law was no longer in affect or you've completely misinterpreted it. You wouldn't understand our laws unless they slapped you in the face.

BR: “It is not the color of skin that we judge, but the content of character.”

And, you've shown your character to be a bigot and a pedophile who attacks little old ladies on their way to church. What about your own thorns, BR?

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! BR, you continue to to amaze me with the depth of your stupidity. Does it come naturally or do you have to work at it? Before you ask other people about their birth certificates, why don't you tell us what you think a birth certificate is? Before anyone answers your idiotic questions, answer a straight forward one and quit avoiding it. Or, do you have so little understanding you don't even know what it is?

And as has been pointed out to you over and over again, and confirmed by the case you linked to yourself, AMERICAN WOMEN DID NOT LOSE THEIR CITIZENSHIP UPON MARRIAGE TO A NON-CITIZEN IN 1961!!!!!!!!

You're right! I'm not an American! I'm a Pennsylvanian!

*rushes off to price flights to Pittsburgh to exchange American passport for Pennsylvanian passport from bewildered employees at City-County building*

Poor Gerry keeps slipping farther down the rabbit hole.

Oh, I'm SO HONORED!!!!! I'm not a bitch any more!

*wipes a tear from her eyes*

Over your naturally armored gluteal muscles?

Well put. But any discussion with birfer fools (especially Gerry and his uncontrollable drooling) is like trying to get a slab of cheddar cheese to make a coherent statement.

Raven lunatic is beyond help.

OUCH! ; – )

(but definitely true)

MTPH, I'm not having a discussion with that idiot…I'm laughing at him. He thinks that just because he doesn't come directly out and say the real reason he doesn't want Obama, nobody will recognize his bigotry. But, as each and every one of his reasons are shown to be false, the truth comes out. I saw way too many of his type growing up in the 60's, so anytime I can make them look like the a$$es they truly are, I'm going to enjoy it.

They're lost in the magnitude of his physical presence.

Um…It's pretty much understood that if you were born in one of the fifty states then you're automatically a United States citizen. That's probably why birth certificates don't say “United States Birth Certificate” on them.

Because the individual states are a part of the Unit—you know what? Fuck it. Just fuck it.

Yes, you are first a citizen of Pennsylvania.

Under the US Constitution, Pennsylvania is part of the US.

You do not need to carry a Pennsylvania to travel about the USA.

If Pennsylvania, seceded from the US, you would still be a Pennsylvania citizen, and you would need a Pennsylvania passport, to enter the USA.

Jim, a copier machine produces copies, but a printer produces originals. You put an original into a copier, and what will come out of the other end as a copy.
If you put Obama's original vault copy birth certificate into a copier, you get a copy out the other end, that can be certified as a true copy of the original.

The INput of a laser-printer is computer data, the OUTput of a laser-printer is an? original computer-generated, laser-printed document, that can be certified as true, but you cannot call it a true copy of the original birth certificate.

Do you comprehend the concept yet?

Really? If Pennsylvania succeeded and she now lives in Mass and neither returned to Pennsylvania any time since the succession or disclaimed her american citizenship, you're saying she's no longer an american citizen? Where did you ever come up with THAT dumb idea? You going to go around the country rounding up anybody that born in Pennsylvania…man you are dumber than the dogshit I scraped off the bottom of my shoe!!!

Jim, you had to be at that church that day to fully understand why I was being so loud. You do not have the whole picture, so you are unqualified to judge my actions or motives. The church was harboring illegal aliens, and I understand why the church likes to harbor illegal aliens. However, I would prefer the church go to Mexico, rather than have the illegal aliens here in California.

I have a sore oozing pimple on my ass, for you to suckle.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! You are one dumb dude there, BR. Who's to say the copy you made is from the original data? Unless you're standing there watching them, they could easily put a forged document or using simple techniques change any field they choose on the copy from the copier. But, they don't issue true copies, in fact most states won't give you a true copy nowadays. Mainly, because that's not what a birth certificate is. Or didn't you realize that. Oh, I forgot, you haven't ever said what you think a birth certificate is, so you wouldn't even know. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Footnote 26 yes

I understand perfectly. So, if I believe that you are somehow breaking the law or not being a good citizen, I should get a few friends together and go meet you mother or grandmother on the street and start berating her…gotcha. (wink, wink) You are an a$$ and a bigot, pure and simple.

Is that what you ask little girls to do?

Nothing, NOTHING, excuses your behavior and that of your friends toward that woman.

“Carry a Pennsylvania.”

*HOWLS*

You can't even write a single sentence without making a mistake! What an idiot!

*gasps for air*

Also, as you would know if you'd bothered to read any of my numerous posts mentioning this, I live in Massachusetts, not Pennsylvania. I was BORN in Pennsylvania. And since both states are part of the same COUNTRY, guess what? I didn't need to “change my citizenship” when I moved here three decades ago. All I had to do was sign an apartment lease.

If you want to refight the Civil War, have fun. But trying to tell loyal Americans that they really are citizens first and foremost of their states comes awfully close to sedition. Does your VA man know that you're preaching treason?

All I comprehend is that, once again, as usual, you show all the intelligence and comprehension of the American legal system as my cat.

The cat, at least, has an excuse: his mother was malnourished before his birth. You, on the other hand…..

Excellent comment. It seems that he likes to believe that every word he types is utter proof that he is correct. He has made it possible for people to have a better understand of American law, and why his comments are so strange.

All of which once again proves that you were wrong from the beginning. Why are you digging yourself a deeper hole? Can’t find any mysterious, yet enchanting videos of oppressed women to deface?

Well, looking at BR's pictures, I imagine you could blame his mother too, ellid.

I think his current appearance owes more to his own post-Navy dietary habits than anything else…unless he's actually REMF, which is more than possible.

He is, however, mysterious, yet disgusting.

But, his attitude toward women and his actions show a deep distrust and loathing…that comes directly from his interaction with his mother. Classic case. Sociologists would have a field day with him.

That is categorically false. You continue to argue that American women can lose their citizenship when marrying a man who is ineligible to become an American citizen. However, you don't understand what the term “ineligible to become” means.

Yes, and doing work in a community of disadvantaged people shows a kind person. Your position still doesn't make any sense.

You don’t understand the concept of the comment, so don’t pretend you do.

Or, why he spends so much time taking pictures of young girls….

Do you understand the concept of what a computer is? It is apparent from reading your comment that you don't. You don't even know the correct terminology to use.

I finally understand your position. It isn't that you don't believe the president is a natural born citizen, it is that you have “an ax to grind” against those that you perceive as being different from you.

I don' understand the relevance of his comment.
Is he just interested in contradicting himself.

One of the reasons I wonder if ol' BR ever so much as set foot in a military recruiting office is that his claim to being an electrician's mate doesn't square at all with what he writes here.

Think about it. Electricians have to be able to follow a wiring diagram. They have to know exactly which wire goes where, and what tools to use. They not only have to study their craft, they have to undergo training with a master electrician that's similar to old medieval guild system. Sloppiness, a misread diagram, or misinterpretation of a task can lead to electrocution, burns, or fire.

An electrician needs to be precise, careful, and exact, plus be able to read and follow instructions…and I have yet to see ANY of this from Borderraven. His history on these boards is rife with sloppy thinking, law, misread documents, bad writing, and a complete lack of understanding of American law. He seems to struggle with the most elementary concepts, or misinterprets them so badly that an actual lawyer would be hard pressed not to laugh.

NONE of this squares with the idea of him making a living having anything to do with something as dangerous and delicate as electricity. He's too sloppy and too impatient, and his reading is so limited that I can't imagine him being able to rewire a lamp, let alone a ship.

Another wannabe? An REMF? Or just a very, very stupid, bigoted, lonely man who's terrified of anything or anyone different?

'Tis a puzzlement.

Racists do not accept the 14th Amendment because they never accepted the result of the Civil War. They would like to roll back the clock to about 1850.
This country would be better off if the South would just accept that they lost, and that they deserved to lose.

Oh no! My mother's from Pennsylvania. Are they going to send her to Kenya?

Poor kitty!

Funny how all these horrible character traits that President Obama supposedly possesses are based on lies, smears, rumors and innuendo by crazy rightwingers.
Meanwhile, every person who has ever actually known him and been interviewed about him says that Barack Obama is a great guy. “Kind, humble, brilliant, decent, caring” are among the adjectives used to describe him by people who have actually had direct contact with him.
Even Senator Tom Coburn, one of the most conservative Senators in the Congress, who agrees with President Obajma on almost nothing describes him as a “wonderful man.”
So the whole “Obama is a scaryevilmuslimathiestgayconmankenyan thing cuts no ice with me.
But, silly me, I listened to the people who actually know the man.

I’m not religious, but I respect a church that feels a mission to care for the outcast and the stranger. I’ve heard that Jesus was sort of in favor of that.

I looked it up and Pennsylvania does not have a law stating persons born in Pennsylvania are citizens of Pennsylvania. The code does recognize “citizens of the United States” as citizens of Pennsylvania, so I can go to Pennsylvania and be recognized as a citizen, since California code recognizes me as a state citizen by birth.

Of course should California secede from the US, I'll need a California passport. LOL

Don't worry, before the illegals and reconquistas take over I'll leave.

i equals e over r
v * a = p

I wasn't only an Electrician's mate. I was an Aviation Electrician's mate, working on aircraft. I had to learn how to analyze complex, integrated systems. Not only did I have to know the electrical and instrument systems, I had to know how every system interacted or interfaced. I did it for 20 years.

Considering Pennsylvania, was one of the original 13 colonies and first states, the laws in Pennsylvania, are screwed up.
Example
http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/055/chapter15…

150.2 Definitions
“Citizen of the United States—A person born or naturalized in the United States. The term also includes nationals from American Samoa or Swain’s Island.”

That is a state law defining the term “Citizen of the United States” but I cannot find where the legislature states what constitutes a citizen of the state, yet they say “nationals from American Samoa or Swain’s Island” are recognized in Pennsylvania, as US citizens. Except they are in fact, 8USC1408 “Nationals but not citizens of the United States at birth.”

Well, if she is in California, then she is an alien, under California codes, since Pennsylvania code fails to define a Pennsylvania state citizen, therefore, she is not a citizen of the states united by the US Constitution.

CALIFORNIA GOVERNMENT CODE

241. The citizens of the State are:
(a) All persons born in the State and residing within it, except
the children of transient aliens and of alien public ministers and
consuls.
(b) All persons born out of the State who are citizens of the
United States and residing within the State.

Anthony, you are a mental midget. A computer is a data processing machine, and I've worked on them since 1972. So, go back to your stall and vegetate.

How do you know how much time I spend on any one activity? It seems your imagination exceeds your capability to grasp reality.

Wow. There is something that we have in common. However, having worked with computers doesn't mean you understand the underlying principles that technology. If you did understand you would realize that what you typed is utter nonsense.

He is just misrepresenting the facts again. He is attempting to make the facts represent what they aren't.

There are great surgeons who can change the tire on their car. However, based on your proclamation of your skills we would have expected you not to be a birther.

Your imagination has, as usual, outstripped your knowledge.

With your analytical and reading skills? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

That's because citizens of Pennsylvania (WHICH I AM NOT YOU FAT-HEADED FOOL BECAUSE I DON'T LIVE THERE ANY MORE) are citizens of the United States.

As for leaving the United States, I understand that the Nazis have a nice little colony in the Antarctic. I'm sure they'd be white enough for you.

*laughs and laughs and laughs*

What a steaming pile of horseshit.

You don't even have to see a skunk to smell that one has been around.

You don't even have to see a skunk to smell that one has been around.

Birthers have misrepresented the facts so many times that just by looking at their arguments you know they are making things about again.

Or, she's just a citizen of the US and a resident of the state where she lives, since states do not confer citizenship on the people born or residing in them.
The federal government defines who is a citizen. There are no “sovereign” states.

I also don’t believe you simultaneously trained as an electrician’s mate AND worked with early 1970s computers, unless possibly they let you check the wiring once in a while. They’re different specialties that don’t have much to do with each other.

Want to prove it for a change? Maybe post a link to your discharge papers to prove you aren’t lying? After all, it’s a lot less than the mountain of paperwork you and your brain-damaged buddies are demanding of the President.

I also don’t believe you simultaneously trained as an electrician’s mate AND worked with early 1970s computers, unless possibly they let you check the wiring once in a while. They’re different specialties that don’t have much to do with each other.

Want to prove it for a change? Maybe post a link to your discharge papers to prove you aren’t lying? After all, it’s a lot less than the mountain of paperwork you and your brain-damaged buddies are demanding of the President.

Well, considering how much time it probably takes you to get out of a chair, let alone take a stroll, probably a lot longer than the average person.

Well, considering how much time it probably takes you to get out of a chair, let alone take a stroll, probably a lot longer than the average person.

He’s a handsome fellow, if not the sharpest tool in the shed. :D

He’s a handsome fellow, if not the sharpest tool in the shed. :D

Unless she can provide proof of her 100% Americanism in the form of a vault copy of her birth certificate instead of the usual “Certification of Birth” Pennsylvania hands out, who knows?

I also wish they'd dump that traitor's flag. It's no better than a swastika.

He doesn’t want President Obama to live in the United States from what I can gather, which is yet another reason to be glad that this idiot is no longer in the military. America doesn’t need traitors like this in the ranks.

He doesn’t want President Obama to live in the United States from what I can gather, which is yet another reason to be glad that this idiot is no longer in the military. America doesn’t need traitors like this in the ranks.

He also wasn’t a blue-eyed, fair-skinned blond, but almost certainly had dark skin, brown or black eyes, and black or dark brown hair.

In short, Jesus of Nazareth would have looked just like those dark-skinned hordes that Borderraven hates so much. I wonder if this has occurred to the walnut-sized nodule he calls a brain?

*applause*

YOU clearly passed eighth grade civics, unlike our worthy Minuteman.

*applause*

YOU clearly passed eighth grade civics, unlike our worthy Minuteman.

Pssst ….Think what United States mean.

O.K. I'll make more popcorn then!

BR: “Don't worry, before the illegals and reconquistas take over I'll leave.”

Why wait? Leave now. You'd improve society immensely by your absence.

Anthony, just what does “United States” mean?

Does “United States” mean the “Federal Government”?

As in Article 4 Section 4 where you may think the “United States” is referring to the federal government, when in fact it refers to the responsibility each state owes all states, to prevent invasions.

Does “United States” mean, the states united by, and the union of states created by, the US Constitution?

If a state's laws recognize persons who are citizens of the other states in the union, now present in that state, as citizens of that state, it then does not legally recognize persons from a state which does not define persons born in it as citizens.

Technicalities? Yes, but the laws are technical definitions of how we run our society.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! BR, you are such a bs artist. As you have written, you have totally agreed that Obama is a citizen eligible to hold office. If you would even read over what YOU write, you absolutely agree with that. It's like I said, you have proven yourself to be Obama's biggest supporter as to being a citizen at birth. Read your crap again, it's all right there.

Neither Pennsylvania nor Massachusetts laws define their inhabitants as state citizens, therefore if you are not a citizen in the state, how are you a citizen of the union of states?

I expect you will say “I just am”, but still there is that technicality, of not being considered a state citizen.

If you are relying on a federal law, then should the union dissolve, technically so does your citizenship, until state laws are written.

But, now the question to pose to California SOS is about a state passport.

What does this have to do with Obama? He is nothing but a 14th Amendment citizen. He has proven his father was an alien, therefore the usurper is not a natural born US citizen.

But, Hawaii says he is a natural born citizen. You said California has to recognize that fact, as do all other states. So, by your definition he IS a natural born citizen able to hold office by Hawaii laws.

Now, to further show the shallowness of your argument, do you even KNOW why you can only be the citizen of a single state and yet still be a US citizen no matter where you live? Of course you don't, it would make so much more sense than the contortions you're attempting to do. Come on, I can use another laugh. Try to explain the real reason that we have separate state citizenships from federal citizenships. It goes right back to the very reason we have a democracy. Or, do you not even understand that?

Thank you.
I have to wonder what Borderraven was doing when he should have been paying attention in class.

It is less my responsibility to teach, than it is your responsibility to learn.

I can only inform you, but you must develop the ability to absorb the lesson.

Your failures will not hinder the advancement of the class.

A friend of mine had a beautiful tom cat. He had been left in a hot car for hours; he was almost too hot to touch and nearly dead when she rescued him. Clearly the cooking damaged his brain, because while he was the friendliest creature you could ever hope to meet, he was so dumb that if was sitting next to the car while they were backing it up, he would not move. The tire could whack his head and he’d just sit there.
He’s gone now, but the memory of his sweet disposition lives on.

Poor BR, now he's just babbling about himself and his lack of ability to learn. So sad, first sign of senility. Even though we've shot down every one of his arguments, even though he's proven to have no understanding of the law or precedence, even though he has no understanding of the separation of powers between the states and the federal government, he still can't grasp basic concepts. One of these days he'll learn to read completely what he posts, to understand our constitution, and understand our democracy,but not until he gets over his irrational fear of people who are different from him.

So border, what's next? Going to make up something else? Keep writing, you keep proving that you know Obama's been legally elected. Heck, he might even use some of your quotes to get re-elected.

What deep, philosophical questions. Too bad an idiot is attempting to explain them to people who know he's an idiot.

Congratulations. Seldom have I seen such a steaming heap of idiocy in my entire life.

I really should send this to the VA and see about having your pension, healthcare benefits, and Social Security revoked; after all, since you've just publicly declared that you follow the traitorous beliefs of the Sovereign Citizen Movement, why should I and ever other loyal citizen allow you to stuff yourself until you're morbidly obese at our expense?

Learn what? How to be a tax cheat and a liar?

I don’t know, I’ve had problems with cats. Back in college, I got one for my gf for her BD. She was thanking me quite nicely when the cat thought my nether regions was a new toy…I didn’t know I could jump that high from that position! I think I’ll stick to dogs.

It wasn't really that complicated of a question. Should I have use written my question to include “concept” instead of “mean.” Honestly, you have clearly demonstrated that you don't understand the concept relating to citizenship. You are such a boring person, by thinking that you can con people into believing your nonsense.

The man squirms so much, I could see his feeble attempts at arguing away the existence of snow.

Trying to formulate excuses as to why they should seem him home early. Formulate as context of scribbling on a piece of a paper will thinking of excusing.

Without your consistent misrepresentation of the facts or the law I would have gained an in depth understand of the laws that lead to Obama's presidency. I would always know that something was wrong with you comments after I read them. Then out of curiosity I do some research and find out what the problem was. The problem is that you would always leave out things that undermined you position.

So it is an inconvenient truth that Obama is a natural born citizen. You have convinced me that you are just ignoring the fact that Obama meets all the constitution requirement to be president. Instead of wasting your time typing nonsense just say you can't “accept the fact that Obama won the election.”

Below, BorderInsanity is trying to put us down by claiming he's trying to teach us and we're not willing to learn. So, in the interest of being fair and honest to him, I thought I'd put together the list of his knowledge so that we can properly ascertain what it is we are suppose to learn from him…fell free to add to the list.
1) He has linked court cases that totally disproves his theories. What we learned, he cannot fully read a precedent nor understand their contents.
2) He claims that a natural born citizen must be born of 2 citizen parents, but can point to no law, constitutional statement, or court precedence. What we learned, he has to make up facts and has no respect for the constitution.
3) He claims that Obama MIGHT have been born in Kenya, yet can find no official or document to back up his claim. What we learned, he couldn't tell a forgery from the real thing if it reached up and bit him in the a$$…couldn't see it either.
4) He claims state citizenship is more powerful than national citizenship. What we learned, he has no concept of voting rights and how you have to have a way to identify who is eligible to vote in state and local elections and who is not. Even the states have limits in they can't go against Federal law and that's why some states call them residents and other call them citizens even though they are the exact same thing. He really has no concept of this and totally lacks the ability to comprehend it.
5) He claims Obama's mother lost her citizenship when she got married, yet the case he pointed to noted that that was overturned. What we learned, his hate for the president is more important than the law of the land and the constitution of this great country.
6) He doesn't like the “look” of Obama's BC and how it was printed because it doesn't fit his narrow vision of what a BC should “look” like and how should be created. What we learned, it doesn't matter if a document follows Federal Guidelines and all legal requirements to him, it's all about the “look”…which totally fits into everything we know about br. If he doesn't like the “look” of people, they don't belong. If he doesn't like the “look” of a document, it must not be valid. And, if he doesn't like the “look” of fruits and vegetables, he only eats fried food and falls into disrepair.

So, Br, the total sum of the knowledge you have to offer is it's all about the “look”. Sorry, I passed up that shallow vision of the world before Kindergarten and have enjoyed life more than being scared and suspicious of everything because of their “look”. Go away until you're ready to learn yourself.

California isn’t Hawaii. Did you also fail geography.

We call 'em straw men. His arguments have continued to devolved. All I can say is that the State of Hawaii has Obama original birth records end of story. This guy argues on end about nothing without proving anything. However, he is a very determined little person.

Well, all he has left is this and taunting little old ladies on their way to church. A shallow existence for a shallow person.

He seems more determined to convince himself that he is correct. Actually, I think his is pulling a taitz. He wants other birthers to think he is actually accomplishing something.

He seems more determined to convince himself that he is correct. Actually, I think his is pulling a taitz. He wants other birthers to think he is actually accomplishing something.

I have learned one thing from Borderraven:

That driving at high speeds on an interstate is not compatible with attempting to film other cars traveling on an interstate.

Unfortunately, all your lessons seem to come straight from your ass.
Fact: anyone born in the USA is a natural born citizen of the USA
Fact: President Barack Obama was born in the USA (cue Springsteen music)
Fact: you cannot change the above facts. Even if Ann Dunham had lost her citizenship (she didn't) when she married, her son was still born in the USA.

Born in the USA, He was born in the USA.

Maybe they should switch the music when Obama enters. “Hail to the Chief, Born in the USA!” Has a nice ring to it. :-D

What other nonsense could he come up with? Let's try to help him out.

Ann Dunham actually gave birth to President Obama on a ship in international waters, so he's not a citizen of any country.

President Obama was born on Hawaiian tribal land, so he has to produce the long form to prove he's a native Hawaiian. And then of course he can't be a natural born citizen, since that would interfere with his tribal identity and mortally offend the indigenous Hawaiian population (we know how sensitive BR is to the feelings of brown people.)

At the Constitutional Convention, an obscure founding father (Glendon Beckford) express strong opposition to the idea that a man could be born in August and still be eligible to serve as president. And NO other president has ever been born in August (except Bill Clinton but he doesn't count) so President Obama must leave office immediately, because if any founding father expressed the least distaste toward anything, then it's unconstiutional. That's why no American is allowed to stand on on foot while cracking a walnut; George Washington found it “disgusting.”

OMG, and here I had my heart set on winning the 2016 election. Oh well, the laws the law. Maybe I can get the same conspirators that have faked Obama's birth in Hawaii to get my BC moved back 5 days…considering I was born on the same day as the President.

And, BTW, I totally agree with GW…they look like drunk flamingos doing that!

Or that Gerry Nance might have a deep seated fantasy that involves sedition and federal prison.

Gerry, you're a pompous idiot and an enormous, vacuous ass. You have no case, no authority, no clue, no education and no common sense. You are making your own bed with every drool laden, deranged post you make all over the web.

Accept the consequences of your actions, birfer fool.

And perhaps more sadly, I did a quick search and “Gerry Nance” aka borderraven (posted openly) is apparently an OCD type birfer desperate to convince people of the his bullshit theories all over the web. There are some really sick fscks out there and like Oily Taintz they seem to be gluttons for punishment.

That, too.

I'm hosed, too, since I am one year to the day older than President Obama.

Bummer. I've got a couple of years on you, but now I'll have to remember to toast you next August 4th along with the President and myself…plus the 4 classmates from HS. A sparkling white Asti is always nice. See, there is a positive to go with every negative. :-)

He posts *everywhere*, and he's always, always wrong.

Just a bored little man who has absolutely nothing to do with his time. To be pompous one needs some form of education or authority.

Yes. This is true. Like all birthers, he doesn't know when to quit.

You've taught me the value of uncontrollable side-splitting laughter.

Actually, Anthony, not to be argumentative but one can be pompous and possess no education or authority. Watch an episode of Cops.

Many birfers are self-important, uneducated fools.

I don’t know ellid, in 72 it would have predated the microchip so electricians were a big part of the needs to have a computer. All the wires, switches, tubes, etc and the amount of power those suckers used. Of course, judging by his comments, he still thinks they work the same way. So, basically I would consider his knowledge of computers on par with the Wright Brothers knowledge of the modern jet.

The man is thinking of vacuum tubes not microchips. He is trying to convince people that computers don’t output the information that was inputted into it. I would say he is more like the mythical Icarus.

I have no desire to learn any of the following:

- How to cheat on my taxes.
- How to trespass on church property and scream at members of the congregation.
- How to lie.
- How to misread and misinterpret the law.
- How to hate people with darker skin than mine.
- How to hate women, which means hating myself.
- How to stuff myself to twice my healthy weight, and whine when this is pointed out.
- How to take disturbing videos of underage children.
- How to drive recklessly while attempting to film other drivers on the interstate.
- How to write so poorly it's hard to understand what I'm saying.
- How to foment sedition.

I see no value in absorbing any of the above, and cannot for the life of me understand why I would wish to. In particular, I don't understand why I should learn to hate. Perhaps our good Minuteman would explain just why I should?

I do have one question, thought:

Just what “class” is becoming a loud, bullying, misogynistic, overweight, bigoted loudmouth supposed to advance? I'm very puzzled.

For those interested and still getting updates, Border's moved over to here.

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/the-hilar…

Have fun!

For those interested and still getting updates, Border's moved over to here.

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/the-hilar…

Have fun!

He's also spamming months-old threads with his ridiculous “timeline” claiming that “Spring Break” at the University of Hawaii began in MAY. He's also posting same on the comment threads at the Hawaiian newspapers.

The sheer stupidity of it would be blinding if we weren't talking Borderraven. I seriously wonder how he managed to get through basic training since he seems to have the IQ of a rock.

He's also spamming months-old threads with his ridiculous “timeline” claiming that “Spring Break” at the University of Hawaii began in MAY. He's also posting same on the comment threads at the Hawaiian newspapers.

The sheer stupidity of it would be blinding if we weren't talking Borderraven. I seriously wonder how he managed to get through basic training since he seems to have the IQ of a rock.

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