Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official

By
Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 12:16 pm

Just in case he wasn’t familiar with it, Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) decided to read the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution to David Kris, assistant attorney general of the Justice Department’s National Security Division, who was testifying to the Senate Judiciary Committee today to urge reauthorization of expiring provisions of the USA Patriot Act.

Franken, who opened by acknowledging that unlike most of his colleagues in the Senate, he’s not a lawyer, but according to his research “most Americans aren’t lawyers” either, said he’d also done research on the Patriot Act and in particular, the “roving wiretap” provision that allows the FBI to get a warrant to wiretap a an unnamed target and his or her various and changing cell phones, computers and other communication devices.

Noting that he received a copy of the Constitution when he was sworn in as a senator, he proceeded to read it to Kris, emphasizing this part:  “no Warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

“That’s pretty explicit language,” noted Franken, asking Kris how the “roving wiretap” provision of the Patriot Act can meet that requirement if it doesn’t require the government to name its target.

Kris looked flustered and mumbled that “this is surreal,” apparently referring to having to respond to Franken’s question. “I would defer to the other branch of government,” he said, referring to the courts, prompting Franken to interject: “I know what that is.”

Kris explained that the courts have held that the law’s requirements that the person be described, though not named, is sufficient to meet the demands of the Constitution. That did not appear to completely satisfy Franken’s concerns.

Today’s Judiciary Committee hearing has so far proceeded much the way yesterday’s House Judiciary Committee subcommittee hearing did, with Democrats (except the Justice Department witness) expressing skepticism that the current law adequately protects Americans’ civil liberties and Republicans emphasizing the need to have all possible tools for law enforcement available because another major terrorist attack could occur at any time.

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767 Comments

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[...] & AP Patriot Act may get renamed, but with a few changes, David G. Savage, Chicago Tribune Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official, Washington Independent Justice Dept. to Limit Use of State Secrets Privilege By CHARLIE SAVAGE, [...]


Anonymous
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:16 pm

I think searching and seizing private homes in America without a warrant is “surreal”!


Anonymous
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:20 pm

marocure is partially correct, but that’s half the story. Whether you live in China or a max security prison, there is – and always will be – illegal, criminal activity and violence. On one hand, the poster above is correct, in that most of (wanna be) dictators believe* if only they could control everything, they could control anything… The truth however is that terrorism and violence and crime will exist whether we maintain complete freedom and defend all our democratic ideals, or if we’re subjected to total authoritarianism… The last administration was keen on the latter solution… Sorry, but we’ve all seen government and police screw it up too many times to trust them with absolute control over citizen’s lives, or unfettered access to all communications from everyone. Too few people in the Bush years asked “what if” (an innocent American ends up being identified as a “suspect” by some poorly written software program?). 8 years later, and we still have the wrong people on security and travel watch-lists… Keep the freedom. Find the terrorists and kill them. Anyone who thinks we can’t do both is simply an absolute fool, or someone who would gladly lick the boots of wanna be dictators, or is in fact a wanna be dictator. Don’t give these people an inch (or any more than they’ve already taken)…


Scuby
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:24 pm

Driving a car is very much regulated. You have to be a certain age. You have to have a license. You have to have head lights and tail lights that work. You have to follow the speed limit. You have to wear seatbelts (most states). You have to stop at stop lights and stop signs, etc. etc. etc. There is no reason why guns should not be just as regulated.


Ken Girard
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:27 pm

So you are willing to join the Militia (National Guard), follow orders and regulations issued by your superior officers, place your life on the line for your country, and then agree to disarm once you are no longer part of the Militia?


k. Roberti
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 4:49 pm

Al Franken is wonderful, thinking commoner (hah!). Hi simple and succinct way of approaching the subject is refreshing and needs not be placed in a form that his non-lawyerly status is anything but RIGHT!


Mellifluous
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:56 pm

Are you sure the JusDept witness is in fact a Dem? I signed an activist email today that stated that the majority of the current DoJ denizens are holdovers. To a certain extent that is to be expected, because it takes a while to go through all the motions and confirmations. But still…


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Dan Isaacs
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 4:35 pm

Anyone have video of this?


Nickster
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 9:53 pm

“Lack of depth of understanding” must translate to “weaseling,” because that is what the thugs in power do when “interpreting” the Constitution in light of their experience in law enforcement.

Just because you can think of a dozen (or a hundred situations) in which you think the 4th shouldn’t apply, and can document those reasons, doesn’t give you the authority to make laws contrary to the Constitution – it has to be amended first, that’s how the system is designed.

Seems to me that having a “depth of understanding” regarding the 4th is actually DETRIMENTAL to enforcement of it, not beneficial!


What Fourth Amendment? PATRIOT Act being used to catch drug dealers, not terrorists : The Reid Report
Pingback posted September 23, 2009 @ 5:56 pm

[...] he can also read, in this case, our dearly departed Fourth Amendment, which Franken had to quote to someone who ought to know better: Just in case he wasn’t familiar with it, Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) decided to read the Fourth [...]


Irish_Wake
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 4:56 pm

“This is surreal.”
Responding to a Senator during Senate hearings is surreal, or the fourth amendment is surreal?
Obviously I am joking. The SCOTUS has ruled that surreallism is a valid legal lens for viewing the Constitution. Practicality is the order of the day, as opposed to original intent.


Anonymous
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 10:13 pm

You left out the third comma:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

So the competing interpretations are:
A well regulated Militia, blah blah, blah blah, shall not be infringed.

vs.

Blah blah, blah blah, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

To me, this interpretation isn’t grammatically correct.


Name
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 5:22 pm

On the one hand, I am glad that Franken has become a strict constructionist of the Constitution. On the other hand, I do not think he has read the rest of it. Maybe he will next lecture Sibelius about the literal language of the Tenth Amendment?


Name
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 5:40 pm

You can't read the 10th Amendment by itself, it's meaningless by itself. If you're going to talk about the 10th Amendment, you must talk about the entire constitution, especially Article I with it's very broad language.

Now I could be wrong about you in particular, but the vast majority of Libertarians and Paulites on the web always gloss over major sections of the constitution when discussing State's rights. The Constitution is NOT the Articles of Confederation, which failed completely and prompted a stronger federal government.


johntalbutt
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 5:41 pm

Had Kris answered “I defer” when he was given his oath of office, he could not have assumed the office.


sbvpav
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 5:59 pm

damn, it's a bummer when the constitution is read to you; regardless of what the cheney/gwb's courts said about it! once again, be afraid, be very afraid and “when there's another terrorist attack, don't blame us.”


SLRNashuan
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 6:04 pm

Maybe C-SPAN will have it.


GaryB
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:07 pm

Since the PA is unconstitutional; do not extend it, instead abolish it!


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MDC
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 6:16 pm

Bravo, Mr. Franken! The men at DOJ are more concerned with spying on Americans than with upholding the Constitution. But, what's new!? The goons at Justice are just as worthy of skepticism and distrust as any other branch of government. Franken is doing precisely what he was elected to do: uphold the Constitution. That document infuriates most GOP officials who figure they know better than our Founding Fathers when it comes to dealing with Citizen matters. The USC gets inconveniently in the way and the power freaks in DC just can't deal with it. Franken should hammer that 4th Amendment right into DOJ's forehead. The Constitution is the thin piece of brilliant political doctrine standing between the US citizens and the deservedly suspect government. Bush did more to destroy the Constitution than all previous administrations combined, including Nixon's. Now that's saying something. Obama isn't doing much to reverse Bush's hackery. Therefore, we need more Frankens to stand up and let the Constitution be heard.


marocure
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 6:29 pm

The only regime capable of preventing terrorism, is one that is so wholly totalitarian and authoritarian as to be terroristic themselves.


midnight
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 6:30 pm

Good grief, the people of Minnesota atoned for Michele Bachmann by electing a mensch. I have been impressed by Franken since he took his seat.


Name
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 6:32 pm

Maybe you will next lecture us all on the difference between the “literal language” of the Tenth Amendment and why, in United States v. Sprague (1931) the Supreme Court noted that the amendment “added nothing to the [Constitution] as originally ratified.”


obxartist
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 6:40 pm

Yes, yes. It all makes perfect sense. We must voluntarily sacrifice our civil liberties to protect ourselves from an enemy intent on destroying our freedoms. Circular firing squad, anyone?


dmg
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 6:46 pm

I hope Franken keeps up the very detailed and thoughtful comments and questions. He did the same during the recent Supreme Court hearings. After politicians become jaded, their comments become vague and sound more like opinion / ideology that they are trying to make sound like fact. Franken is a smart and critical thinker.


deadlevelbest
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 6:52 pm

Good job, Minnesota. You think Norm Coleman would've asked questions like that? Not in this lifetime. Excellent work, Al.


Name
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 6:55 pm

Dear headline writers/editors: The proper way to cite him is “Senator Al Franken” or “Sen. Al Franken.”


Aaron Baker
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 6:56 pm

The oath of office for public service begins:
“I, (state your name) do solemnly swear to uphold and defend the constitution of the united states against all enemies, foreign and domestic.”
Sounds like Franken paid attention, and the DOJ flunkie didn't. Personally I think anyone who violates their oath of office should, at a minimum, resign that office.


nuffera
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:02 pm

Go Al! You know your stuff!!!!!


Wardo
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:04 pm

Um, they did. The AP style says you formally ID the person the first time indicated, and their last name thereafter.


Jill Schodde
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:08 pm

Thank you, Senator Franken.


jeff
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:08 pm

http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/hearing.cf…

click on webscast and jump to 96:00 min


David_Morse
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:11 pm

How interesting and how sad. An official of the Department of Justice, who takes an oath to uphold the constitution believes “this is surreal,” having to answer a question on the 4th Amendment from Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.). The DOJ is trying to win reauthorisation of Patriot Act provisions that allow searches of US homes without a warrant. What is surreal here is having a government lawyer refuse to answer a direct question of law.


Bill
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:12 pm

As much as I like Franken, which is a lot and as much as I don't like the patriot act. I can't help be feel a little embarrassed for Franken in this situation. It is not as simple as just reading the constitution like that (as the DOJ guy points out). It makes him look amatuer. Much like, but not as bad as, the Senator from OK during the Sotomeyer (sp?) confirmation hearings.


cornelius
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:13 am

An upsurge in knife murders? Really? It’s hard to tell if you’re joking.

Guns are designed to kill. Take guns out of a person’s hands and they WILL be less likely to kill. Sure if they really wanted to they could still kill with poison or a knife or whatever. But how many gun deaths are the result of impulse? It’s too easy to pull the trigger. A gun is more likely than most other legal or improvised weapons to kill even when that may not be the user’s intention.

Also, should we be allowed to buy bombs too?


PC
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:14 pm

“That’s pretty explicit language,” noted Franken, asking Kris how the “roving wiretap” provision of the Patriot Act can meet that requirement if it doesn’t require the government to name its target.

In full agreement Al, but what happens to your reading comprehension when you read the 2nd.


joelmindes
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:17 pm

Senator Franken is a breath of fresh air.


kkojei
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:20 pm

When will you ever learn? How many times do I have to say it? The POTUS is not a dictator. Thank God for that or a lot of heads would be blowing in the wind on wooden stakes, including yours. The President, PRESIDES!!!!! Congress writes legislation. So the President PRESIDES over the activities of Congress both house and senate. He is a member of neither as a safeguard of our liberties. He is Commander In Chief of The Armed Forces of The U.S. but he is not involved in directly engaging our military. Once again, Congress has to approve those kinds of actions. He can use the power of the office in deliberately limited ways. So get of that kick….Obama is doing much!!!!! He's doing his job and that a hell of a lot better than any President of the U.S. I have seen in my lifetime.

You shallow thinkers know nothing about democracy even though you constantly harp about it. If you don't know what democracy is, how do you think you know what socialism is or communism?


themikeh
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:21 pm

Bill – why is it not that simple? What “expert” does it take to read the constitution and understand that there is a contradiction here? It is the “simplicity” of this document that is paramount to our civil rights as U.S. citizens. We have left this discussion open to broad (and exploitive) interpretation for too long.

Keep up the good work Senator.


msobel
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:22 pm

shall we call Senator Franken a Fourther ?


Salem_guy
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:25 pm

Now that's Funny!

I wonder what the answer is myself, something that fits into one sentence or paragraph.


SVrob
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:27 pm

What is embarassing? He asked one of our law enforcement officers for his take on how the work of the DOJ vis-a-vis roving wiretaps comports with the 4th amendment. Seems like a forthright inquiry to me. What makes a Senator not a “professional”? Franken is getting paid like anyone else. While I do not know what you specifically have in mind, e.g., which OK Senator, as well as subject matter, NO one can be as bad as Inhoffe or Coburn. Thus, I disagree with your comment.


bayside
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:28 pm

Please pass a copy of our bi;ll of rights and our constitution around to congress and the white house. They have not read any of these documents I am sure..


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kindness
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:30 pm

ie – the 2nd Amendment: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

What part of 'a well regulated militia' are you not understanding? Please keep in mind, I do support a citizens right to own guns, but I also support local control and the possible restrictions that localities can place on it's citizens. This is a case where all too commonly the conservatives who feel local control trumps all, all of a sudden feel Federal control trumps. Integrity demands consistency.


MYMY
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:30 pm

About time someone challenged the whole premise of these wiretaps.


Name
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:30 pm

Thanks Al.
Maybe you'll also ask some hard questions about the CIA, their ongoing Operation Mockingbird agents in the media, and their flu and 9/11 scams.


Billy
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:33 pm

If it was so simple, we wouldn't have courts interpreting it.


Billy
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:33 pm

If it was so simple, we wouldn't have courts interpreting it.


EE KELLER
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:33 pm

My new hero!


EE KELLER
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:33 pm

My new hero!


Bill
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:33 pm

The broadness is where the freedom lies. It is because the document is simple and doesn't tell us everything, it leaves things open to interpretation and thus flexible. If it wasn't flexible the constitution couldn't cope with the changes our world has undergone since it was written.

Specific to the 4th amendment though. I don't want to expound too much here. But basically if it was just that simple we wouldn't have 200+ years of case law interpreting what it means.


Bill
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:33 pm

The broadness is where the freedom lies. It is because the document is simple and doesn't tell us everything, it leaves things open to interpretation and thus flexible. If it wasn't flexible the constitution couldn't cope with the changes our world has undergone since it was written.

Specific to the 4th amendment though. I don't want to expound too much here. But basically if it was just that simple we wouldn't have 200+ years of case law interpreting what it means.


Bill
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:33 pm

The broadness is where the freedom lies. It is because the document is simple and doesn't tell us everything, it leaves things open to interpretation and thus flexible. If it wasn't flexible the constitution couldn't cope with the changes our world has undergone since it was written.

Specific to the 4th amendment though. I don't want to expound too much here. But basically if it was just that simple we wouldn't have 200+ years of case law interpreting what it means.


Rosco P Coltrane
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:34 pm

This is all show. I'll be happy when Franken proposes a bill to repeal the Patriot Act.


Wardo
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:36 pm

I think the Asst. Attorney General should have clarified roving wiretaps, at least those in his control, as being for national security matters, eg terrorism and espionage, and therefore falling under FISA and national security law, instead of strictly criminal law, which is the prime jurisdiction of the fourth amendment.

(Not saying he's right. Just saying that it would have been the better point.)


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Pingback posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:37 pm

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HawkeyeD
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:37 pm

Bill,

That's what the courts do all the time when they review the “plain language” of the Constitution or of a law. One simply reads and compares. That simple.


HawkeyeD
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:37 pm

Bill,

That's what the courts do all the time when they review the “plain language” of the Constitution or of a law. One simply reads and compares. That simple.


dukeuch
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:38 pm

Yeah, how about the right to bear arms for the purpose of maintaining a well regulated Militia? How much clearer can it be?


dukeuch
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:38 pm

Yeah, how about the right to bear arms for the purpose of maintaining a well regulated Militia? How much clearer can it be?


Bill
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:39 pm

It is kind of embarrassing because, it shows his lack of depth of understanding in that matter. But like he said, he isn't a lawyer, so I can't really blame him. He just should realize where his strengths lie and defer to others for his weaknesses.

However, I think I overstated it before regarding the OK senator Coburn. Franken is intelligent, honest and seems to be doing his best to get up to speed. I applaud him for it and am glad he is in the senate. Coburn, well. . . not so much.


Bill
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:39 pm

It is kind of embarrassing because, it shows his lack of depth of understanding in that matter. But like he said, he isn't a lawyer, so I can't really blame him. He just should realize where his strengths lie and defer to others for his weaknesses.

However, I think I overstated it before regarding the OK senator Coburn. Franken is intelligent, honest and seems to be doing his best to get up to speed. I applaud him for it and am glad he is in the senate. Coburn, well. . . not so much.


Bill
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:39 pm

It is kind of embarrassing because, it shows his lack of depth of understanding in that matter. But like he said, he isn't a lawyer, so I can't really blame him. He just should realize where his strengths lie and defer to others for his weaknesses.

However, I think I overstated it before regarding the OK senator Coburn. Franken is intelligent, honest and seems to be doing his best to get up to speed. I applaud him for it and am glad he is in the senate. Coburn, well. . . not so much.


Al Franken Asks an Intelligent Question « FocusedFire – Targeted Common Sense
Pingback posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:42 pm

[...] usually seems to be thoughtful. An excerpt of his questions to an assistant attorney general, from The Washington Independent : Franken, who opened by acknowledging that unlike most of his colleagues in the Senate, he’s not [...]


Mary M. Smith D.O.
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:45 pm

Go Franken !!! You are worth every penny I sent for your campaign and your post-election legal costs.
Memosyne


Danlar
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:48 pm

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
Reasonable people could read this and decide that this makes the case for the Militia members (which is now the roll of the Military…. who have strict gun regulations) and not the individual per se to be armed. The Supreme Court in the DC decision said the idividual does have the right but that right is not limitless just as freedom of speech does not let me shout “fire” in a crowded theater. in fact it can be very very strictly regulated according to the DC decision. That is what needs to be done. There is too much dam gun violence in this country, in fact we are the #1 exporter of arms legally and illegally (Mexico). Guns kill people.

Nothing unconstitutional about that.

Al knows that.

First, This survailance really should be done in my opinion.. It needs to be done Constitutionaly somehow.


Kevin Schmidt
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:49 pm

They took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution, not WE THE PEOPLE. Yet, they always use the excuse of protecting the people so they can limit our constitutional rights, again. Our government works for us. We don't work for them. They have to do everything we say.
We can do anything we want collectively because WE THE PEOPLE, and not the federal government, are the sovereignty.

It they were truly concerned about stopping potential terrorist attacks against the U.S., then they should end U.S. imperialism, war mongering, war profiteering, genocide, theft of third world natural resources, and their involvement with propping up brutal regimes.

Concerning the so called terrorists, they don't “hate our freedoms”. They hate our freedom to commit U.S. state sponsored terrorism on a global scale.


kalpal
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:50 pm

Is there any way to still the anxious trepidation of a paranoid personality? You'll have to ask the members of the Republican party.


kalpal
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:50 pm

Is there any way to still the anxious trepidation of a paranoid personality? You'll have to ask the members of the Republican party.


kalpal
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:50 pm

Is there any way to still the anxious trepidation of a paranoid personality? You'll have to ask the members of the Republican party.


Danlar
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:51 pm

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
Reasonable people could read this and decide that this makes the case for the Militia members (which is now the roll of the Military…. who have strict gun regulations) and not the individual per se to be armed. The Supreme Court in the DC decision said the idividual does have the right but that right is not limitless just as freedom of speech does not let me shout “fire” in a crowded theater. in fact it can be very very strictly regulated according to the DC decision. That is what needs to be done. There is too much dam gun violence in this country, in fact we are the #1 exporter of arms legally and illegally (Mexico). Guns kill people.

Nothing unconstitutional about that.

Al knows that.

First, This survailance really should be done in my opinion.. It needs to be done Constitutionaly somehow.


Danlar
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:51 pm

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
Reasonable people could read this and decide that this makes the case for the Militia members (which is now the roll of the Military…. who have strict gun regulations) and not the individual per se to be armed. The Supreme Court in the DC decision said the idividual does have the right but that right is not limitless just as freedom of speech does not let me shout “fire” in a crowded theater. in fact it can be very very strictly regulated according to the DC decision. That is what needs to be done. There is too much dam gun violence in this country, in fact we are the #1 exporter of arms legally and illegally (Mexico). Guns kill people.

Nothing unconstitutional about that.

Al knows that.

First, This survailance really should be done in my opinion.. It needs to be done Constitutionaly somehow.


Danlar
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:51 pm

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
Reasonable people could read this and decide that this makes the case for the Militia members (which is now the roll of the Military…. who have strict gun regulations) and not the individual per se to be armed. The Supreme Court in the DC decision said the idividual does have the right but that right is not limitless just as freedom of speech does not let me shout “fire” in a crowded theater. in fact it can be very very strictly regulated according to the DC decision. That is what needs to be done. There is too much dam gun violence in this country, in fact we are the #1 exporter of arms legally and illegally (Mexico). Guns kill people.

Nothing unconstitutional about that.

Al knows that.

First, This survailance really should be done in my opinion.. It needs to be done Constitutionaly somehow.


ballardmike
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:51 pm

Way to go Sen. Franken!! Always good to read the instructions before jumping to conclusions!


ballardmike
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:51 pm

Way to go Sen. Franken!! Always good to read the instructions before jumping to conclusions!


compassionate
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:52 am

Given the meaning of “arms”, which in this case is synonymous with “weapons” (and is certainly limited to guns) the second amendment, if taken literally does seem to confer the right to keep and bear weapons ranging from rocks to hydrogen bombs.


old hippie
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:54 pm

isn't it convienent that we have uncharged terrorists in colo. at this moment. watch out for the boggieman


WilliamTheV
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:55 pm

he doesn't have to introduce a bill to repeal it, the can do what Andrew Jackson did to the National Bank, and just let it expire by not renewing it.


kelso75
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:57 pm

Good comment Kevin!


sergesret
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 7:57 pm

Exactly. Like Al said he isn't a lawyer and so aren't most of the American People. So, mister DOJ expert, show a little respect for the People's house and give your explanation without any mumbled snark. This is the People's business and you don't pull any, “I'm and expert so shut up”
crap with us. You give us an explanation, and better hope you don't peg our bull detectors.


t4
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:00 pm

Sad day for the executive is outwitted by a newbie senator who actuallyread the constitution. Way to go Franken, now if you just keep oing with the questionof other alternate Obama scifi reality universes like cost/cost, no tax tax, no deficit busting deficit busting no improvement in health healthcare bill. Coudl be your the nextreal pol star out of the washington wasteland.


redsongia
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 9:02 pm

I sure hope the teabaggers remember to honor Mr. Franken at their next rally.


vixtor
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:03 pm

I'd like to point out that the 2nd amendment say's, “A well regulated militia,” I'm guessing the framers of the constitution believed in regulating our right to bear arms.


stevemc045
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:05 pm

So you could basically say “that guy there” and that would be enough to satisfy the constitution? Hard to believe the Framers saw fit to include a “protection” that could be so easily circumvented.


gbloodgood
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:05 pm

Once again Franken nails it. I love my state and am proud of Feingold and Baldwin but Franken makes me envious of Minnesota. Its almost worth moving just so he's my senator. Now let's get more and more Frankens and Feingolds elected. Maybe we will become a true democracy again!


Andrew
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:08 pm

…which would be a valid reply if the person had been referring to the lead paragraph and not the headline.


jamesdorr
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:09 pm

“Guns kill people. “

Wow, now I am frightened to open my gun case! I mean, if guns kill people, then one can just open fire on me…

AMIDOINGITRITE?

Anyway… By your logic, cars kill people too. So, maybe we should ban cars? 41,471 people were killed in 1997 alone, in cars! Ban cars!


daltonII
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:10 pm

You wouldn't even have to say whether it was a “guy” or a gal.” All one would have to say is we're looking at “someone.”


tombetz
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:12 pm

He doesn't need to propose anything new. All he needs to do is co-sponsor the Judicious Use of Surveillance Tools In Counterterrorism Efforts (JUSTICE) Act introduced last week.

http://feingold.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=317927


vixtor
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:13 pm

We regulate cars don't we? I'm pretty sure it's harder to get a license then it is to buy a gun, and nobody complains about having to have a license to operate a motor vehicle.


csbrudy
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:14 pm

Sadly, the terrorists who attacked on 911 were paid by some of the same people who contribute big to Republicans. If anyone still seriously believes Bin Laden took down the WTC Towers, they need to have their head examined.


dano2112a
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:19 pm

Archei Bunker said “Rocks Kill People” lets outlaw rocks.


bcannapolis
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:24 pm

Franken does it again, it's embarrassing that a junior senator who's been there less than a year is the only senator with the balls to bring up such a basic and explicit right. Keep it up Al. Oh and as for senator Feingold, keep him he's worthless as far as I'm concerned. Take a look at S 787 the Clean Water Restoration Act that he sponsored where Uncle Sam has the jurisdiction over every waterway in the US including small streams and private ponds.


bcannapolis
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:24 pm

Franken does it again, it's embarrassing that a junior senator who's been there less than a year is the only senator with the balls to bring up such a basic and explicit right. Keep it up Al. Oh and as for senator Feingold, keep him he's worthless as far as I'm concerned. Take a look at S 787 the Clean Water Restoration Act that he sponsored where Uncle Sam has the jurisdiction over every waterway in the US including small streams and private ponds.


bcannapolis
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:24 pm

Franken does it again, it's embarrassing that a junior senator who's been there less than a year is the only senator with the balls to bring up such a basic and explicit right. Keep it up Al. Oh and as for senator Feingold, keep him he's worthless as far as I'm concerned. Take a look at S 787 the Clean Water Restoration Act that he sponsored where Uncle Sam has the jurisdiction over every waterway in the US including small streams and private ponds.


bcannapolis
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:24 pm

Franken does it again, it's embarrassing that a junior senator who's been there less than a year is the only senator with the balls to bring up such a basic and explicit right. Keep it up Al. Oh and as for senator Feingold, keep him he's worthless as far as I'm concerned. Take a look at S 787 the Clean Water Restoration Act that he sponsored where Uncle Sam has the jurisdiction over every waterway in the US including small streams and private ponds.


bcannapolis
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:24 pm

Franken does it again, it's embarrassing that a junior senator who's been there less than a year is the only senator with the balls to bring up such a basic and explicit right. Keep it up Al. Oh and as for senator Feingold, keep him he's worthless as far as I'm concerned. Take a look at S 787 the Clean Water Restoration Act that he sponsored where Uncle Sam has the jurisdiction over every waterway in the US including small streams and private ponds.


cybermark
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:30 pm

I appreciate Al Franken's fresh approach to issues such as this which are of substantive significance to us all.


cybermark
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:30 pm

I appreciate Al Franken's fresh approach to issues such as this which are of substantive significance to us all.


cybermark
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:30 pm

I appreciate Al Franken's fresh approach to issues such as this which are of substantive significance to us all.


cybermark
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:30 pm

I appreciate Al Franken's fresh approach to issues such as this which are of substantive significance to us all.


cybermark
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:30 pm

I appreciate Al Franken's fresh approach to issues such as this which are of substantive significance to us all.


pccat
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:51 pm

Although the court has also made a decision on the gun toting folk, the Constitution is very specific on that also. Article II reads; “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.” The Militia at that time was the people. The Militia nowadays should be recognized as the National Guard in each state and not every nut who chooses to tote a gun to political rallies! I bet no brave member of Congress will ever choose to challenge that court decision.


martykayzee
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:51 pm

As long as I'm sitting here legislating from the couch, I'm wondering what the original strictly constructed intent of the framers was in defining an “arm.” It was in fact the single shot, muzzle loading, 25 pound, 5-foot long, flint lock, smooth bore, Brown Betty; just like the one that Charlton Heston held aloft when he invited us to pry it from his (thankfully) cold dead hands. Hey, NRA, you can have as many of those as you want.


White Cloud
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:57 pm

Using the words “a well regulated militia” to justify restrictions on gun ownership is an example of the “false authority fallacy”. A “well regulated militia” in those days was understood in those days to be what we would now call a voluntary community-based private militia, NOT the National Guard.
It basically means neighbors agreeing among each other to share the duty of protecting their homes. That is NOT the role of the modern day military.


White Cloud
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:57 pm

Using the words “a well regulated militia” to justify restrictions on gun ownership is an example of the “false authority fallacy”. A “well regulated militia” in those days was understood in those days to be what we would now call a voluntary community-based private militia, NOT the National Guard.
It basically means neighbors agreeing among each other to share the duty of protecting their homes. That is NOT the role of the modern day military.


White Cloud
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:57 pm

Using the words “a well regulated militia” to justify restrictions on gun ownership is an example of the “false authority fallacy”. A “well regulated militia” in those days was understood in those days to be what we would now call a voluntary community-based private militia, NOT the National Guard.
It basically means neighbors agreeing among each other to share the duty of protecting their homes. That is NOT the role of the modern day military.


White Cloud
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:57 pm

Using the words “a well regulated militia” to justify restrictions on gun ownership is an example of the “false authority fallacy”. A “well regulated militia” in those days was understood in those days to be what we would now call a voluntary community-based private militia, NOT the National Guard.
It basically means neighbors agreeing among each other to share the duty of protecting their homes. That is NOT the role of the modern day military.


White Cloud
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:57 pm

Using the words “a well regulated militia” to justify restrictions on gun ownership is an example of the “false authority fallacy”. A “well regulated militia” in those days was understood in those days to be what we would now call a voluntary community-based private militia, NOT the National Guard.
It basically means neighbors agreeing among each other to share the duty of protecting their homes. That is NOT the role of the modern day military.


White Cloud
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 8:57 pm

Using the words “a well regulated militia” to justify restrictions on gun ownership is an example of the “false authority fallacy”. A “well regulated militia” in those days was understood in those days to be what we would now call a voluntary community-based private militia, NOT the National Guard.
It basically means neighbors agreeing among each other to share the duty of protecting their homes. That is NOT the role of the modern day military.


Anonymous
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 2:05 am

Thank you Good People of Minnesota.


MikeBakunin
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 9:23 pm

Hell, the last eight years at the White House has been surreal.


Hooker
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 9:30 pm

If when asked a direct question about the Constitution – a rather simple question – the official of the DOJ said the questioning was “surreal”. The next question should have been does he know what the meaning of “surreal” is? Would he refer that to the courts, as well? Who are these people?


mike
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 9:34 pm

Wait, don't move. Look who else they have elected. Al just did make it. Plus it's colder that a well diggers butt.


I. E. Carter
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 9:48 pm

I'm proud of my fellow Minnesota, Al Franken. He's doing what we elected him to do–protect our liberties. It's time Congress stood up to the right wing about civil liberties. Yes, we need to protect the nation, but we need to balance that security with the freedom that we obligated to protect.


Entropy
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 9:49 pm

I agree that there is too much gun violence in this country and in the countries of our neighbors. However, if we banned guns (like that would keep it out of the hands of criminals) then we would just see an upsurge in the number of knife murders. Or perhaps murder by poison. Maybe even piano dropping murders!

Instead we should attack the root of those murders, which in my opinion is organized crime. Mostly drug related. The existence of guns does not create the environment for murder — it just makes it a little easier. But what if we cut off their money supply and reason for existence, say by legalizing drugs and prostitution. Wouldn't that potentially stop the violence much better than outlawing guns? I mean, why would they follow that law while completely ignoring the whole “drugs are illegal” one?

But thanks for the defending the fourth amendment though, Mr. Franken. I certainly appreciate it.


gary2515
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 9:50 pm

How about get rid of the constitution all together … that would give law enforcement every tool required to combat, … well everybody.


janetramos
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 10:05 pm

HA HA HA HA….Goodness Sakes …..I love's me some SENATOR ALAN FRANKEN……you go AL….We got your back……


bencohn
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 10:05 pm

You are right, well regulated militia was NOT meant to be the National Guard, hence the difference between state and federal military forces. The whole reason behind the provision was because the Framers we afraid the power a national military might gain. If you read Steven's dissent in “District of Colombia v. Heller”, what it did mean though was a State's malitia, i.e. the everyday people of a state had the right to come together and form an armed military force. It says nothing about creating a personal right to have weapons, regardless of what Scalia might say.

Now just so you know, I am not opposed to personal gun ownership. Iif we wanted to pass such a law allowing it always, or wanted to amend the constitution to include this personal gun right, that would be fine with me. But do not mix your political views and what the Constitution says. In those day, they “called up the malitia”, meaning all men of age that could hold a gun. I highly doubt that the states today are going to be calling up every gun owner. If you want to part of your states militia, more power to you, but just being an American does not give you a right to a gun when not combined with any sort of military or militia purpose.


Al Franken reads the 4th Amendment to a Justice Department Official and questions him regarding the patriot act. « Netcrema – creme de la social news via digg + delicious + stumpleupon + reddit
Pingback posted September 23, 2009 @ 11:10 pm

[...] Al Franken reads the 4th Amendment to a Justice Department Official and questions him regarding the …washingtonindependent.com [...]


NO2WAR
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 10:11 pm

Thank you Senator Al Franken!


Ken
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 10:17 pm

I'm glad someone's asking tough questions regardless of the party running the executive branch. If Republicans had enough sense to do this for the previous 8 years they wouldn't be so busy running away from the Bush legacy.


compassionate
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:22 am

Sorry, that should read “(and is certainly NOT limited to guns)”


strangely_enough
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 10:26 pm

What exactly do you find objectionable about setting a single (federal) standard re water pollution?


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:45 am

People read health care into the bill of rights, its not even implied, so why not the right to “keep and bear arms” that is spelled out!


facebook-1329780505
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 10:59 pm

…Nope, not really. I think it might be you who needs his head examined.


facebook-1329780505
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 11:00 pm

…Would it have to be a person?


M
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 11:09 pm

So, Republicans don't trust the government to get involved in the private health care business but they're totally trusting of the government when it's the invasion of privacy business? Just wanted to be clear on that. Gotta love the party of small government.


coliwabl
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 11:10 pm

Wow, someone in Congress who isn't an attorney! That is an achievement all by itself. And, then there is the way Senator Franken stood up to that pompus ass Kris, who just couldn't believe what he was hearing. Well, Mr. Kris, what you were hearing was a question that we would all like you to answer without pontificating to avoid giving not only the answer but an honest answer.


Anonymous
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:31 am

Your putting the cart with the horse. There are two separate statements. One stating that a well regulated militia is necessary for a free state, and the other expressing the right of the public to bear arms. In other words, you can’t raise a militia in time of need, unless you’ve granted the people the right to bear arms, which I will add is exactly what happened in the American Revolution. Individuals had the right to bear arms granted by King George, and in their time of need they formed militias like the Culpeper Minutemen. Not a quid pro quo.


jmcalli
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 11:37 pm

I think the courts have disagreed with you.


Jenny Mathis
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 11:42 pm

A lawyer friend told me that the language in the 4th amendment has not always been required in all situations and courts have often upheld acts of law enforcement breaking the 4th amendment. Although it's interesting to highlight that Franken says he isn't a lawyer and certainly tries to uphold civil rights in this situation.


yvonne
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 11:43 pm

You obviously haven't done any research on the subject or you wouldn't make such a ridiculous statement. I agree with csbrudy–anyone who still believes the official 9/11 conspiracy theory needs to have their head examined.


neilmpurdy
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 11:46 pm

Throughout my life I've heard conservative Republicans insist on the strictest, most literal application of the U.S. constitution to all manner of government. Goldwater tried but fumbled the ball. Reagan managed some regression New Deal ideals. He cut taxes and the budget–but not enough to pay for his cuts. The mantra of conservatives–a balanced budget, was scrapped for populism. Movie stars crave popularity. Once Bush II came in, even the Constitution with its protections of individuals against the Federal bureaucracy, had to be scrapped. Being in power fuzzies even the most basic of principles. Can Obama help? Pray, brothers and sisters.


The Washington Independent » Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to … | Job Fair News
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:48 am

[...] posted here: The Washington Independent » Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to … Share and [...]


charlesprincehouston
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 11:49 pm

“the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed” Is that so difficult for you to understand. What a bunch of morons. When seconds count as burglars invade your home, the police are minutes away. And as the courts have held: The police have no legal responsibility to protect you.” You are on your own. I hope your family is proud of you when criminals assault your wife and daughter in your own home.


A.Lincoln
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 11:52 pm

That had to be the first time Kris ever heard of the 4th.


Joe Bob
Comment posted September 23, 2009 @ 11:56 pm

“because another major terrorist attack could occur at any time” Oh oh, does this mean Cheney is going to dress as a terrorist for halloween and do some dirty deed so his warnings will carry some weight and he can say, “I tole ya so”


Maverickpoet
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:01 am

Now if we could only get Stephen Colbert, Jon Stewart, Rachael Maddow, and a few other people like Al Franken with a solid grip on reality, morals/ethics, intelligence, and good old fashioned common sense…we'd straighten this “surrealness” that has been the last 8yrs. You go, AL


avoiceofreason
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:03 am

You're only addressing a portion of the language…
“A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

“the right of the People” being the key terminology. It doesn't read “right of the state,” or “right of the Militia,” or “right of the government…”

Since the 12th century England had not only allowed, but required individuals to bear arms for public defence. This right was granted to the colonies, specifically the American colonies. Had they not had this right, there would have been no revolution. The framers of the constitution realized that they should codify this right of individuals to bear arms, not only for public defense, but to ensure the ability of the people to overthrow any tyrannical government, even their own. The crux being this is a government formed to serve the will of the people and can be dismantled by the same.

American's rights and liberties are few and far between. Reconsider when deciding to relinquish these rights, and don't relinquish these rights to alleviate a transient societal problem.


stpaulie
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:05 am

I would imagine Kris thought it was surreal because he wrote an extensive legal opinion sharply criticizing the Bush administration for these wiretaps. The courts disagreed. As a DOJ official he is bound by the court's interpretation of the Constitution. In my opinion, this is pretty poor reporting to leave out Mr. Kris' well known position on the matter.


ErnestPayne
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:18 am

The Republicans, have discovered to their horror, that while Al Franken may be a comedian, he is not a fool.


truthinyourface
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:25 am

Well, we know that if George W. Obama doesn't get his way, there will be another big attack here in Plantation America. The only question, of course, is: who's gonna be blamed? 19 Iranians with Venezuelan visas and North Korean boxcutters? Do the North Koreans make boxcutters?

Franken did a fair job… but until these false flag operations are exposed for what they are, and until the war criminals are hanged high, it won't matter. We're living in a police state.


Make up your mind already… | Life Is Rich
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:34 am

[...] do the Republicans want more or less government? Why is it that the government is a horrible abomination that should be scorned except [...]


Donnat
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:40 am

You are SO cool, Al, and a real American. keep showing up these facists.


lesreed
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:41 am

Way to go, Al!


marirose
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:49 am

That's the second amendment. We're talking about the fourth amendment here.


Joe
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:56 am

“The right to bear arms”
I don't see how you think that there is no law to allow for guns when we have the above in black and white.


marirose
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:59 am

Am I missing something here? Why are so many posters commenting on the “militia” and on gun ownership which are *second* amendment issues? This article is about the “patriot” act (not at all patriotic and quite a freakin' – not franken – act) and the *fourth* amendment. C'mon folks….

BTW, I love Al Franken – may he live a long healthy life as a US Senator!


bone rules
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:04 am

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


bonerules
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:06 am

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


instituteforcloserinspection
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:10 am

Benjamin Franklin once stated that those who would give up their liberty to earn safety deserved neither liberty nor safety. I don't want the government to rush to protect me at cost to my civil liberties. I happen to need those. Thank you Senator Franken.


dennycrane
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:13 am

It's the old premise that men are basically evil and all should be in jail until they are “well” enough to enter society so they can “mingle” in with the lawyers. Then, after a period of time, “new” things will be “invented” to make them criminals again. Might as well place your possessions on your porch, so the thieves don't have to break your door down getting them.


littlebadwolf
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:18 am

bravo! you go, al! give 'em hell, just like harry.


terencekim64
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:41 am

Is Al the only remaining intellect who actually speaks on behalf of people? I don't live in MN but I wish I did. You make me proud to be an American – “Most Americans aren't lawyers.” – what a great line.


psevetson
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:43 am

Fourth amendment, tool. Not second. The second is not at issue in this discussion.


lightnessandjoy
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:46 am

All those Republicans huffing and puffing about personal freedom and too much government… until it comes to government repressing personal freedoms. Then they seem to like it just fine. Do they ever listen to themselves? Do they ever look in the mirror?


psevetson
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:47 am

I like that he's asking obvious questions that none of the lawyers have the cojones to raise. “Educate me, here. Doesn't the Constitution say you can't do this?”


lightnessandjoy
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:49 am

in a well-regulated militia. Why are those words always missing when the gun nuts go off?


Hominid Views » Blog Archive » Sen. Al Franken, Hero
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 2:53 am

[...] Al Franken gets right to the core of an issue that has been driving me nuts since the illegal wiretapping stuff first came out: Sen. Al Franken [...]


psevetson
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 2:10 am

Research doesn't equal wisdom. Wingnut conspiracy theories have lots of documentation — more theories and speculation, not genuine evidence. You are too credulous, as you accuse your adversaries of being.


FLOOP
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 2:27 am

I must say that there are very few people in the political circle that i would like to buy a beer for…senator Al Frankin is one of the them.You make me proud to be an american again …stand tall my four eyed brother.and as one we will watch tom the hammer delay.dance and prance like a true republican, He willno doubt embarras america.like the jester he is…to fully injest the republican party watch that danching show with that Delay guy someone tell him to try to not treip over his prom gown this week…..get AL A BEER


jfb23
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 2:33 am

I love Al Franken, but if he were a lawyer he'd know that there is no expectation of privacy that the 4th amendment protects in phone or computer communications. These privacy rights are statutory, not constitutional.


jamesowens
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 2:38 am

it goes to show that informed and educated american citizens can and will serve honestly and uphold the truth of the constitution as well as if not better than career seeking lawyer/professional politician


jamesowens
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 2:42 am

well said and america is learning the truth from the web instead of the talking heads on the “pseudonews” shows


Sarah
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 2:45 am

I do not believe any of you get the severity of the Crisis of the Patriot Act. It is not in defense of the people but to crush the will of its people. When a Warrior State has come home from slaughter and tribute, his hammer does not fall upon the gravel by his stoop. No, upon the people for which their wars were meant( private greed). to secure their halcyon against others. Welcome to your inheritance: endless victory, Lies into truths, Freedom as slavery, and War as the workhorse for peace. You have all earned it. As have I. If you do not want this to be our collective fate. Dismantle NAFTA,PATRIOT Act, DOMA, Prosecute Wall Street. You don't have the power to effect macro change start at the bottom: Protest, protest like you never had in your life. We have reached the 3rd stage into Fascism and we are close to entering the point of no return. Take back America for the Citizen. Equal Rights, Education, and Health care for all because Human dignity is not a privilege, nor a right. But the Oxygen that keeps Society thriving and growing.

Laugh at me now, but one day we will be prosecuted not by our actions but by our meditations

Dont believe me re read the article


rkelly72
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 2:46 am

I congratulate Senator Franken. His remarks about us Americans not being lawyers but smart enough to read the Constitution and noting that the Constitution clearly indicates a violation. More of us should stand up with Senator Franken. I wish I could work for his office.


FedUpWithFascism
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 2:52 am

What's surreal –and outrageous– is when those like Kris continue being insulated from criticism, because the people are never allowed to confront them. They remain perfectly comfortable with destroying the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, while using terrorism as the excuse. I'm assuming that Kris is one of the many fascists left over from Bush/ Cheney's push to saturate the DOJ and every branch of law enforcement, with radical right wingers; all too willing to kick the civil liberties of the average American to the curb. When Kris was faced with some small measure of reality / accountability by Franken, he folded like the spineless, brainless cardboard cut-out he is. We need 534 more Al Frankens in Congress to replace the pod people on Capitol Hill. The exceptions to this are Kucinich, Boxer and Feingold; who really DO attempt to represent the people; and not the bloated, corporate, Orwellian vampires, which their colleagues morph into the minute they leave their Congressional pimping seats.


dArKeR
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:14 am

I LOVE al!


psevetson
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:16 am

The fact that there were no computers or phones when the Constitution was written doesn't mean that no such rights are implied by what is written there. The Amendment mentions “persons, houses, papers, and effects” and that was the sum total. Note the inclusion of “papers” referring to what was then the common means of private communication and information storage. Also “effects” which would be possessions such as software and creative works.


erykah
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:17 am

Rethugs, still trying to govern by fear. A noun, a verb and 911.


marlow
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:19 am

Sweet Jeezus, but I'd like a chance to read the Constitution to this clown.


bencohn
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:27 am

But your only focusing on that language. Read it together. The personal right to bear arms comes with it the responsibility of being part of a “well regulated militia”, which no one in DC was. Further how do you just throw out the language of “WELL REGULATED”. I don't think this says anything about regulation of guns itself, but it does say that the militia, aka those that bear arms are supposed to be well regulated. Even in Scalia's majority opinion he admits that well regulated has to mean, ORGANIZED AND TRAINED. Once again people in DC with handguns are generally neither organized as a group, nor trained in the use of the weapon.


bencohn
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:29 am

Read the opinion, it was 5-4 with 2 dissents, one attacking Scalia on his own grounds aka textual analysis, and the other giving the policy reasons against him. The courts disagreed with conservatives on abortion 7-2 but you don't here them saying it's a valid opinion. The fact the a court disagrees with you is irrelevant, courts overturn themselves and previous courts all the time.


susan mayes
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:31 am

At last Minnesota has sent someone to Washington that sounds like he knows what he is talking about. Way to go Senator Franken. NOW, if Minnesota will just decide that they have had enough with the Michele Bachmann's of the world.


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:33 am

I, unlike many here have stated, have always been proud to be an American! I was a republican, I hate the Patriot act. I did not think that Al would be worth a flip, but this one statement has given me hope! I still think most of what he and his ilk are doing is crap, but maybe some of them can pull the plug on what the other retards are doing, Lets face it if he can figure this one out he must realize that no place in the bill of rights does it grant us healthcare, maybe you all can figure that out as well!


larrywell
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:34 am

We loved Al Franken on Air America and had hope for him when he left progressive radio to run for the senate. We are porud of him in Oregon as a truth-speaker. His books are great and he will be an asset to the US SENATE as a thinking man, unlike so many other sell-outs that occupy those leather chairs. We hope his tenure in the senate is to keep the heat on those that deserve it. I'd have a beer with Al any time, anywhere.


Scott
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:42 am

WAY TO GO AL. I think some of these 'lawyers' in congress and goverment need a lesson on the Constitution. I have a saying I live by. For professionals, If you can't do it, teach it. Now I'll add If you cant teach it go into politics and say you've done it. You don't have to be a lawyer to know the law, just some common sense


CherzStyle
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:43 am

Richard stated there may have been no mention of healthcare rights in the Bill of Rights. In fact, there was no insurance of any kind at the time the Bill of Rights was established so how could that even be a sane argument? Montgomery Ward was the very first company to offer insurance to it's employees…quite a few 100 years or so after the Bill of Rights came into being.


CherzStyle
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:43 am

Richard stated there may have been no mention of healthcare rights in the Bill of Rights. In fact, there was no insurance of any kind at the time the Bill of Rights was established so how could that even be a sane argument? Montgomery Ward was the very first company to offer insurance to it's employees…quite a few 100 years or so after the Bill of Rights came into being.


btmomo
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:46 am

He probably knows it by heart — that “clown” is smarter than most of the other Senators, regardless of what his prior career was. The last administration did such violence to the Constitution, and without necessity — the FISA act already gave more than adequate ability to obtain intelligence on short notice — in fact, on retroactive notice. And the abuse of the powers of the Patriot Act for purposes other than protection from terrorism proved that government cannot be trusted with that much power. The drafters of the Constitution knew it more than 200 years ago, and it is still true now.


btmomo
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:46 am

He probably knows it by heart — that “clown” is smarter than most of the other Senators, regardless of what his prior career was. The last administration did such violence to the Constitution, and without necessity — the FISA act already gave more than adequate ability to obtain intelligence on short notice — in fact, on retroactive notice. And the abuse of the powers of the Patriot Act for purposes other than protection from terrorism proved that government cannot be trusted with that much power. The drafters of the Constitution knew it more than 200 years ago, and it is still true now.


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:49 am

I want government life insurance, and brown party liquor!


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:49 am

I want government life insurance, and brown party liquor!


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:50 am

I would also like a plastic rocket ship!


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:50 am

I would also like a plastic rocket ship!


Bajagirl
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:50 am

Gee, I dunno, how about that part that says, “promote the general welfare”? It's right there in the first paragraph.
How is it possible that the best country in the world is the ONLY developed country that turned healthcare into a profit center, rather than a public good issue?


Bajagirl
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:50 am

Gee, I dunno, how about that part that says, “promote the general welfare”? It's right there in the first paragraph.
How is it possible that the best country in the world is the ONLY developed country that turned healthcare into a profit center, rather than a public good issue?


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:50 am

And a pony! A free keg every now and then!


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:50 am

And a pony! A free keg every now and then!


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:50 am

And a pony! A free keg every now and then!


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:50 am

And a pony! A free keg every now and then!


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:51 am

Why dont you send me your money to promote my welfare


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:51 am

Why dont you send me your money to promote my welfare


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:51 am

Why dont you send me your money to promote my welfare


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:51 am

Why dont you send me your money to promote my welfare


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:53 am

Still no specific mention of healthcare!!!!! You could move where they have free health care.


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:53 am

Still no specific mention of healthcare!!!!! You could move where they have free health care.


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:53 am

Still no specific mention of healthcare!!!!! You could move where they have free health care.


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:53 am

Still no specific mention of healthcare!!!!! You could move where they have free health care.


btmomo
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:01 am

Hon, I AM a lawyer and I agree with Al. George and his Liberty University DOJ (critics all of “activist judges” who would interpret laws for themselves) thought it was A-OK groovy to re-write the Constitution when it suited their purposes. You really never knew whether they were double agents, because they were so amoral. How far would they go to prove the point that if we frustrated their objectives, dire results would follow? Would a close call suffice? Would someone have to die? Would it have to be a bloodbath? Because I would not put it past them to arrange a bloodbath if they thought it would clear the way forward.


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:03 am

plz feed


emorycallaway
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:04 am

With Al and Denis in the lower house and Bernie in the upper house we have a few winners . I wish we had a lot more .


jcw60
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:06 am

That a boy Al! Stick it to those who think they need to let the 4th amendment be thrown out. So they can spy on us all.


jcw60
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:06 am

That a boy Al! Stick it to those who think they need to let the 4th amendment be thrown out. So they can spy on us all.


emorycallaway
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:06 am

With Al and Denis in the lower house and Bernie in the upper house we have a few winners . I wish we had a lot more like them .


emorycallaway
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:06 am

With Al and Denis in the lower house and Bernie in the upper house we have a few winners . I wish we had a lot more like them .


CherzStyle
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:09 am

You sound like you came from a plastic rocket ship…by the way, the writers of the Bill of Rights knew what a pony and a keg were thus they are not afforded as rights under the Bill of Rights. Try to stay on subject.

Is that the best response you have? There are many of us out here that expect a logical and true-to-fact conversation about healthcare, not all the hysteria you exhibit.


janiek
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:10 am

Seems like pretty explicit language to me, too, in the 4th Amendment. If the DOJ official was simply going to defer to court rulings, he could have at least explained what reasoning the court used to reach that bizarre conclusion to justify roving wiretaps. Go Al! Your discussion on health care reform with some angry Minnesotans at the Minnesota state fair was the best I ever heard any congressperson express his/her concerns about the health care reform issue and how those thought processes and factors are to be considered in addressing those concerns. That angry crowd was clearly bowled over by your respectful and honest answer. (It's available on You Tube.) Also, your comment at the wrap-up of the hearings on then-nominee Sonia Sotomayor was also the best I heard from any member of that committee. (Also available on You Tube.) I'm not a Minnesotan, but you give me hope that perhaps our election process can really ferret out the best America has to offer. Thank you for your service to your state and to our country.


Jeremiah
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:17 am

And I want better economic stability for my county! I want 40,000 of my countrymen a year to not have to die of easily preventable causes! I've read some of your arguments on this page. I'll agree that health care is not treated upon specifically in the constitution. However there is no provision AGAINST dealing with these specific problems, and implied profs in article I and the federalist papers showing that this is exactly the kind of unspecified power that needed to be reserved to the congress. You sir have no real ground to stand upon, I cannot even imagine why you would make such arguments about healthcare.


Stinklestein
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:19 am

There is no specific mention of roads, police, firemen, libraries, MEDICARE, etc. Should we get rid of all benefits of living in a SOCIETY because each one is not specifically mentioned in the Constitution?

I cannot figure out where you neo-cons came up with this illogical line of attack.


Doug Smith
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:19 am

What's to protect from attack if we toss all that is dear to us as a nation to avoid it?

How sick is that?

The constitution was written to prevent us from doing just such things as this.


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:22 am

I was just asking for the pony and the keg. I saw no hysteria in my comments,Unlike you who insist I came from a plastic rocket ship, I guess humor is lost on some people! I seriously want the government life insurance!!!!! If you can have health care, I want you to give me life insurance.I have already made up my mind on the government health care as have you so we don't really need to discuss anything, I don't want to sway anyone to my side I'm Just stating my opinion, as we all know what opinions are like we can both agree that each others stink, we both still have the RIGHT to them.


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:26 am

Not an argument just my opinion, ease up!


Shamus
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:27 am

And the damn shame of it all is that we thought we had one in the White House, too.


Bajagirl
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:28 am

If you live in a red state (I'm just guessing here) I already am sending you my money, since those of us in blue states subsidize the under-educated, under-employed, welfare states in the red belt. You know, the states with the crappy schools and dying industries, the corrupt politicians with their shameless snouts in the federal trough? And the thing is, apparently unlike you, I think it's appropriate for my tax dollars to go towards helping the less fortunate citizens in my beloved country.


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:29 am

I'm not attacking anything, I don't have a right to a policeman, fireman, don't want MEDICARE, roads a nice though I would fund those.


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:33 am

I think my state is mostly green and brown. I want the taxes I pay to help those that really need it, not some lay about. I have no problem with helping those that need it, I have a serious problem with funding those that just want it,Like the ones in beloved blue states.


lapol
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:38 am

Thanks, Al. Now, please walk over to the White House and read it to Obama.


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:44 am

He would not understand it!!


marmen62
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:51 am

And where does it say that we are to captives of the HC Industry?


marmen62
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:55 am

In case you didn't know RED states in the southeast have the worst health statistics in the US and will benefit more from reform than anyone else.


robmcallister
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:56 am

Really? Are you serious? That is the best “journalism” you can come up with Daphne Eviatar? As a Conservative and highly outspoken against Al Franken, I'm appalled at how piss poor this article was written. For example, referencing the Forth Amendment, yet never explaining it and assuming your reader knows the Bill of Rights, is a travesty. Good journalism requires you to make sure you explain why Sen. Franken did what he did… even if it is as an afterthought.
Secondly, before you compose something for a media outlet, have someone proofread your writing because you are incapable of doing so… My favorite part was:
“…said he’d also done research on the Patriot Act and in particular, the “roving wiretap” provision that allows the FBI to get a warrant to wiretap a an unnamed target…”
Find the grammatical error.

Your argument sucks when its one sided, lacks the muscle to back it up, and is grammamatically challenged.

Good luck as a writer, because well you need it Daphne Eviatar


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:00 am

No where that I can see!!


Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official | The Lie Politic
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:00 am

[...] Visit Source [...]


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:00 am

And?


Some Guy
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:01 am

The “forth” amendment? Would that be some legislation having to do with bodies of water in Scotland?

Franken did a good thing. Give credit where credit is due.


Some Guy
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:03 am

The general welfare clause isn't carte blanche to exceed the enumerated powers, sunshine. If it were, the bill of rights would be null and void.


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:05 am

I was also asking for brown party liquor!!


Some Guy
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:06 am

You're wrong about the history of insurance. Lloyd's had been operating for well over a century by the time we overthrew King George III, and Ben Franklin had already established a fire insurance cooperative in Pennsylvania.


Some Guy
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:06 am

You're wrong about the history of insurance. Lloyd's had been operating for well over a century by the time we overthrew King George III, and Ben Franklin had already established a fire insurance cooperative in Pennsylvania.


bbatsell
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:06 am

As long as we're being nattering nabobs of negativism, “piss poor” is, so much as it resembles the English language, an adjective, yet you attempt to use it as an adverb to modify “was written”.

The rest of your post, unfortunately, only declines from that point onward.


bjed
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:06 am

Yes, this is exactly what the amendment was intended for when it was ratified in the year 1791. It was ratified before the optical telegraph was invented and when smoke signals were still being used. Interestingly enough, 1791 was the year that united states established its first Law School.


cowboyneok
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:16 am

“this is surreal” ???!!! Well, join the damned club of Americans who consider the overturning of their civil rights as surreal!

By the way, when is Obama going to get credit for keeping America safe thirteen days LONGER than Bu$hco. kept us safe when he let us get slammed by Osama bin Laden on 9/11? Republicans repeated “He kept us safe!” as a mantra until I wanted to puke. He sure as hell didn't keep us safe when he was told Osama was determined to strike within the United States. Then again, Dubya was on vacation and the briefer should have known better than to actually think Dubya would actually DO SOMETHING to stop it. Bu$hco. was too busy trying to say Clinton wagged the dog by trying to kill Osama before he struck us on 9-11. Then after that he was too busy trying to shut down our civil rights and go after Iraq's oil to do anything about Osama. Good thing he kept his eye on the ball, or we'd be in deep in Afghanistan by letting that war spiral out of control…. DOH!


Bornliberal
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:17 am

“grammamatically ” Hmm. Just one of several mistakes on your part, robmcallister! Tell me, have you read the “Forth Amendment” as you call it? Perhaps the BIGGEST mistake made by Daphne Eviatar was in assuming her article would be read by those with a higher level of intelligence than you have displayed…


robmcallister
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:19 am

So where is your critique of “a an”?

The difference is that I can make mistakes like that. When your criticizing someone like a Senator, I would expect you to not write like a seventh grader. Just a thought.


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:21 am

You do have a point about the corrupt politicians, we have one here that voted for that TARP nonsense, I wrote in my boss. I threw away a vote just to not vote for him!!! He was the one democrat that I always liked on The national level! Too bad for him, in 2010 he actually has someone opposing him.


MomBee4710
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:21 am

um…robmcallister…it's also a simple exercise to tap the “spell check” button. Granted, Gates doesn't always get it right, but I'm sure Forth (Fourth) although it may have missed the comma after “with” (“…with, Daphne Eviatar”).


bob
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:24 am

Well then why don't we just change america to richarderica, where we fund things richard likes, and ignore everyone else!


tiredofpc
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:29 am

He's not a lawyer, he's not a judge, he's not obligated to a whole lot of folks in major power positions…..yet he's informed, he's studied his subject, Congress, and what it's supposed to be doing and what HE's supposed to be doing for the people he represents…….what a breath of fresh air, and how I wish he represented my state (AZ) in stead of the Neanderthal (sorry, N boy's, I'm giving you a bad name!), that represent my state, AZ!! McCain, Kyl, take notice…..engage your brains instead of reflexively voting against what the Constitution really stands for, instead of your biased, money-friendly views.


marytaft
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:30 am

“Republicans emphasizing the need to have all possible tools for law enforcement available”, now wait, didn't the repubs run on a platform of LESS goverment intrusion inot our lives?


bbatsell
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:32 am

Really? The constitutional law professor at a top-10 U.S. law school would not be able to comprehend the complexity that is the fourth amendment? That's your argument?

Unfortunately, the President does seem to be intent on listening to the centrist “security” officials in his administration who constantly reaffirm to him that he will not be a Serious Person if he does not pay Serious Attention to those Dirty Terrorists, where Serious Attention is defined as “ignoring virtually every protection from abuse our founders gave us in the Constitution in order to pretend like we're doing something.” It is incredibly disheartening.


Bornliberal
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:35 am

I offer Sen Ben Nelson, a major humiliation to the great state of Nebraska, as a trade for Al Franken! Take my Senator, PLEASE! How must it feel to have a real representative of the people, willing to research and use his mind, instead of the usual corporate prostitute so many states (including Nebraska) have at the helm?


stpaulie
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:35 am

Kris is not a leftover from the Bush admin. I would imagine Kris thought it was surreal because he wrote an extensive legal opinion sharply criticizing the Bush administration for these wiretaps. The courts disagreed. As a DOJ official he is bound by the court's interpretation of the Constitution. In my opinion, this is pretty poor reporting to leave out Mr. Kris' well known position on the matter.


elcerritan
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:38 am

That's “When you're criticizing,” you numbskull, not “When your …”.

It's absurd that you're criticizing (see, that's the correct way to write it) this article for being ungrammatical when your own posts show that you're completely illiterate. The mistake you note (“a an”) is a fairly innocuous typo, not a real grammatical error at all.


bbatsell
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:38 am

I actually don't generally nitpick the “grammamatically” challenged, but since you chose to scream like an adolescent over what was clearly an editing oversight, it seemed appropriate.

Also, the journalist who wrote the article doesn't seem to me to be “criticizing someone like a Senator”, but “as a Conservative and highly outspoken against Al Franken”, it seems like you might be, in which case I would expect writing that ascends to the level of a third-grader and doesn't make complaints that are self-evidently unfounded. Perhaps you should work on that?


Bornliberal
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:40 am

Ah, robmcallister-Most 7th graders know that “your” should have been “you're”. Are you trying to be funny?


speedmaster
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:45 am

I like it! Now if we could just get Franken and his pals to read the 2nd, 9th, and 10, too. ;-)


elcerritan
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:45 am

It's only a “travesty” to assume your reader is familiar with the Fourth Amendment and knows the Bill of Rights when you're writing for a right-wing-freeper-teabagger audience.


elcerritan
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:45 am

It's only a “travesty” to assume your reader is familiar with the Fourth Amendment and knows the Bill of Rights when you're writing for a right-wing-freeper-teabagger audience.


bbatsell
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:46 am

Interesting — any chance you could provide a link to Mr. Kris' brief? That certainly would lead to, “This is surreal,” as a response making a lot more sense.


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:51 am

Was not making an argument, and its not a very complex concept! As far as your next paragraph, is he listening to anyone. Read down and you will see I don't like the patriot act. I thought it gave too much power to the government, and I really like poking you people! Your yelps are exquisite.


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:53 am

Could we do that?? Please!!


Bornliberal
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:58 am

Cowboyneok-Great observations-I agree. The bushies did everything but put The Constitution through a shredder! Kept us safe? Condie Rice was a failed sovietologist and dumped the Arab Studies program at Stanford when she was a Provost there, had an oil tanker named after her, asked “How can we USE this?” on 9-12 (to invade Iraq). Cheney, such a paranoid nut-job after 911 he was constantly obsessed at the prospect of another attack, but still the puppetmaster for dubya-the entire administration so corrupt and crazy that they should all be locked up-and the neocons complain that Obama is trying to “do too much” ! Fear still works on the Repubs-the hyped orchestrations against Health Care reform serve as evidence-


mephillipsr
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:59 am

It's about time someone told those jerks there breaking the law, like it's going to make a difference. Laws a written to keep the lowly masses in check will the polticians double talk there way around it.


stpaulie
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:01 am

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/o…

I believe this is the document.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/doc…

It took me all of 5 minutes on google to find the above. I'd never heard of Kris before reading this article. However, unlike Ms. Eviatar, I was curious enough about the “surreal” comment to do five minutes of simple research to find out who Kris is and discovered the likely (and reasonable) context for his comment.


stpaulie
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:02 am

FYI – The second link is a pdf download.


Beca
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:12 am

Woudl love to have Sen. Franken be my State's Senator! What many people don't realize is that this man is exceptionally smart, and not much gets past him. He is a breath of fresh air in a Congress where many are just going through the motions or running scared from the bully Republicans. I think he is going to really shake up the Congress and move it more to bahave in the interests of the American people, rather than the big Corporations.


popurls.com // popular today
Trackback posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:14 am

popurls.com // popular today…

story has entered the popular today section on popurls.com…


cowboyneok
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:14 am

Bornliberal – Yep, and I refer back to the fact the Bu$h White House thought everything Clinton did was some sort of joke and they weren't the least bit interested in trying to keep tabs on Al-Qaida. Then we got hit on 9/11 and Bu$hco's answer was destroy our civil liberties and invade Iraq:

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0404/13/ldt….

The 9/11 Commission today strongly criticized the FBI for failing to deal with the growing threat of al Qaeda before the September 11 attacks. The 9/11 Commission also said Attorney General John Ashcroft did not make counterterrorism a top priority. Ashcroft testified that the United States was blind to its enemies for nearly a decade before September 11.

National security correspondent David Ensor with the report — David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the attorney general offered a feisty defense of his and the Bush administration's handling of terrorism issues before and since 9/11. Going a little on the offensive, he made public a classified 1995 memo in which a wall was increased between FBI criminal investigators and FBI counterterrorism teams, a legal wall, keeping them out of each other's files. This memo was written by one of the commissioners, Jamie Gorelick, when she was deputy attorney general.

Another commissioner, however, got former acting FBI Director Thomas Pickard to say, in effect, that Ashcroft's interest in counterterrorism before 9/11 seemed pretty limited to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD BEN-VENISTE, 9/11 COMMISSION: Mr. Watson had come to you and said that the CIA was very concerned that there would be an attack. You said that you told the attorney general this fact repeatedly in these meetings. Is that correct?

TOM PICKARD, FORMER ACTING FBI DIRECTOR: I told him at least on two occasions.

BEN-VENISTE: And you told the staff according to this statement that Mr. Ashcroft told you that he did not want to hear about this anymore. Is that correct?

PICKARD: That is correct.


dolphinlikr
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:19 am

I listened to Al on Air America for years and he is totally misunderestimated by this group. He knows his stuff better than most of these chuckleheads. He is well prepared and won't embarrass his state or himself.


Bornliberal
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:21 am

Speaking of the 10th Amendment, interesting news for the citizens of Arizona: ” Arizona has a proposed constitutional amendment (to be voted on in 2010) which would nullify a national health care system from operating in the state.”
Wow! What genius came up with this?


Mia
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:39 am

Kris explained that the courts have held that the law’s requirements that the person be described, though not named, is sufficient to meet the demands of the Constitution. That did not appear to completely satisfy Franken’s concerns.
—————

Right…so if the DOJ decided to wiretap every one with white skin, blue eyes, and a vagina…would that not be considered racial and gender specific profiling…and therefore also illegal?


Khalid
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:08 am

Oh that's original, Bully Republicans? Are you Fu*king kidding me? What do you call Rahm Emanuel.

Before you point the finger, look in the mirror you moron. You don't think the big corporations haven't already been lining Democrats wallets?


smileyj
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:08 am

This was a primary mover of the American Revolution, the British could write their own warrants, and come into any house any time. Judge Napolitano points to this as an abomination of law, that the FBI can write a warrant, under the Patriot Act, without the review of a judge, and help themselves into your house, on mere suspicion. Al Franken and Judge Napolitano are in alignment. The simple words of the constitution are all we need to take our country back from bankers and warmongers.


richard
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:11 pm

We do have access to health care. Read some of my comments, I’m not inhumane I just don’t want to pay for lazy! People that NEED help should get it,People that just want to have everything handed to them should just try! You can have all three without healthcare


Khalid
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:17 am

Wow, nice knee jerk reaction with the name calling. If I ever see you in El Cerrito, I'm gonna give you the “teabag”.


LaurenMarie30
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:36 am

AZ is not the only state to have that intelligent idea, but so far they are the only state where to have it on the ballots in 2010 (the rest are still collecting signatures). Good news is that apparently these states have not actually read the 10th amendment because fed laws trump state stupidity


Bobbie Sisco
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:37 am

Al appears to know more about our Constitution than the lawyers in Congress.
and the only statement Republicans know is
“Wait til the next terrorist attack comes – be afraid, worry, be terribly afraid”

They want us to be afraid of everything, but THEM and their lies.


jetjones
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:47 am

Right on, Al. Let's take back the country through truth and the constitution as it is written and not interpreted by a single group.


mccook123
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:53 am

I thought right after 9/11 happened, that we should do nothing to change who were are or what we do, or they will have gotten their way and deprived us of our freedoms. I disagreed with the baggage checking and all of it because I don't think any of that can stop a lunatic if he want's to kill someone he well find a way. I thought we would be a brave country and continue to live our lives as we always had in order to prove the terrorists were wrong but instead our own government proceeded to take one freedom after another away from us and the fact they felt they could secretly spy on all of us actually disgusts me. I see the Bush administration as the true enemy.
Thank you Senator Franken for reminding the people that were there during the passing of the Patriot Act that they were wrong.


Taking the country back, step by step « Blog on the Run: Reloaded
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 9:04 am

[...] to an administration lackey assistant attorney general arguing in favor of reauthorizing the act by reading the Fourth Amendment to him: Franken, who opened by acknowledging that unlike most of his colleagues in the Senate, he’s not [...]


Beca
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 8:08 am

Very good point marytaft! What the repubs don't say out loud is that what they want is “LESS Democratic government in our lives and MORE Republican government intervention in our lives”, and since the Repubs are owned and represent only Corporate interests, rather than real actual citizens, that means keeping the greedy private health insurance companies controlling and destroying our lives, etc.


Beca
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 8:24 am

Just because the word “health care” is not explicitly written in our Bill of Rights, there is that little thing called causation. Our Constitution guarantees every American LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS, however, if you don't have good health or the ability have good health through accessible and quality health care, you cannot have life, liberty or pursue happiness.
Every developed (except the U.S.) and many developing nations clearly define the rights of their citizens to include access to quality and affordable health care.
I cannot understand people like you richard, what do you have against having a nation that is humane to its citizens, all its citizens, and a nation that guarantees equal access to quality and affordable health care? If the greedy private health insurance industry had done it job in the first place, and would have offered a health system that is affordable and equitable for all citizens, the government would not have to step in and do it. But as always in this country, the ultra-capitalist industry barons don't give a rats ass about people, all they care about is increasing their bottom line–and screw the ones who might get trampled on the way.


gramiam44
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 8:37 am

I live in Arizona and it had better not mean they can deny my Medicare. Now you know why we Dems call Kyl and McCain, the twin embarrassments!


DoJ official finds it ‘surreal’ to have to respond to Franken’s concerns about Patriot Act. : Dailycensored.com
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 10:00 am

[...] to discuss the reauthorization of the USA Patriot Act. Committee member Sen. Al Franken (D-MN) used his question-and-answer period to investigate the provision that authorizes “roving wiretaps,” expressing concern that the law [...]


Anonymous
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 2:01 pm

I tend to believe that the founders were pretty clear in the constitution most of the time. They expected it to clear since the independent states weren’t about to sign an ambiguous document. There are some points that are open to interpretation based on the change in technology, but generally the 4th amendment is quite clear: Even in the loosest interpretation the place being wiretapped must have probable cause. Roving wiretaps DO NOT meet this requirement. You want this capability then change the Constitution.

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”


What Part of ‘No’ Don’t You Understand?
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 10:21 am

[...] Lemos at MyDD has a post up about Senator Al Franken’s (D-MN) questioning of the Justice Department’s David Kris about the Patriot [...]


Dotto Danken
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 9:45 am

If I ever have a son I'm gonna name him Minna fucking sota. God bless you, Al Franken and the kosher ass horse you rode in on.


Where Was This Guy When We Needed Him? « Left, Right, and Centered
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 11:00 am

[...] Where Was This Guy When We Needed Him? September 24, 2009 Posted by Benjamin Wendell in Politics. Tags: al franken, constitution, fourth amendment, liberty, obama, patriot act, privacy trackback The Washington Independent » Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Dep [...]


Sen. Franken and the Fourth Amendment « Ad Quod Damnum
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 11:08 am

[...] Franken and the Fourth Amendment 24 09 2009 The Washington Independent is reporting that Senator Al Franken read the text of the Fourth Amendment to Assistant Attorney General [...]


alanq
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 10:08 am

Franken for senate majority leader!!!!


Anonymous
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:17 pm

Haha. You missed a couple big ones:

“Forth Amendment”
(Spelling:of “fourth”)

“Your argument sucks when its one sided.”
(Lack of apostraphe for “it’s”)

Perhaps this conservative found it patriotic to skip school, considering it an unworthy expenditure of public funds.


Tom
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 10:22 am

You got that right…Harry most go…Maybe he would make a Better Black-Jack Dealer..


TruthOfAngels
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 10:34 am

Er, Al Franken's in the Senate, just like Bernie Sanders, hence the term 'Senator Franken'.


The Agitator » Blog Archive » Lunch Links
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:15 pm

[...] Al Franken reads the Fourth Amendment to a DOJ official. Good to hear that Al’s a Fourther. His time in the Senate may be of more value than I thought. [...]


Tunghoy
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 11:16 am

If DOJ official David Kris thinks it surreal to have to follow the Constitution, then his employment needs to be terminated and a replacement named who will follow it. The Constitution isn't an abstract, outdated document that can be thwarted for convenience. It names our core principles and core framework.

When Republitards say we have to violate the Constitution because “a terrorist attack can come at any time”, they mean they want to abolish freedom altogether, because anything can happen at any time, and if it isn't terrorism, it's something else.


nanamary
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 11:29 am

Oh the irony. Seems the same people who scream too much government are more than willing to hand over one of our most precious, basic, constitutional rights. Just so it isn't the one about bearing arms, right?


Gary Macquire
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 11:30 am

I hate to admit it, but I have to agree with Al Franken. I never thought I could agree with anything that he says. The Constitution is clear on this issue, as it is clear on the 9th and 10th Amendments. The Constitution was written to limit the power of government. Too often it is being ignored.


yooperfeller
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 11:45 am

Franken is gonna get “Wellstoned”. You just wait and see.


roberttenorio
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 11:52 am

I do not like Mr. Franken at all. However, this is a 2 way street. We want our freedoms. We earned our freedoms with the blood of our wounded and dead soldiers and victims of 9/11 and other events as well. The Constitution is not a floor mat. I don't care for my Republican brothers and sisters who trample on the Constitution. Therefore, although I do not condone any Democratic politicians decisions, I have to say Franken is right. HONOR OUR LAWS Congress. Or we'll honor our duty and put you in the unemployment line along with our hurting brothers and sisters who you so gallantly put out of work and into despair. I pledge allegiance to the flag.. not the 538 numbskulls who are supposed to serve the people.


Mitch Fatel Retarded Care Reform Legislation
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:54 pm

[...] The Washington Independent » Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to … [...]


BulwerLytton
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:05 pm

Missing comma after “with” in first line (noun of direct address)
“poor” should be “poorly” (adverb vs. adjective)
“one sided” should be “one-sided” (hyphenation of compound predicate adjective)
grammamatically?
“well you need it”?

Pot, meet Kettle.

Thanks for the grammar lesson, Sparky.


stasiastjames
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:16 pm

Yeah, yeah, yeah…All ye who bear arms…you're members of the National Guard I assume…the right to bear arms is to ensure a “well regulated” militia. What, not a member of the Guard…too much of a coward for that? Not enough of a patriot….tsk, tsk.


Kudos to the Comedian « Oh, My!
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:26 pm

[...] Kudos to the Comedian By jbiii He has a clue, or two, its seems. [...]


Anonymous
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:32 pm

I don’t know how cold a well diggers butt is, however, it’s a great place to live…. well except for TPaw. GO AL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


EducatedRants
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:35 pm

How about the military? Blackwater is a good example of private sector inefficiency (embarrassment, abuse of unregulation, etc, etc).

I completely understand not trusting the government, especially after the Bush administration. But there have been bad administrations before and then there have been really good ones; to say that the government can never do anything right is ignorant and wont accomplish anything.

The fact that this is even on a ballot, the idea that AZ can trump US Laws, shows that the government is not beyond hope.

And it is stupid of the state to misinform the residents and lead them on like that.


Anonymous
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:38 pm

Let’s compare apples to apples (a new concept for some, I realize) …the first corporate run health care program on soil was Montgomery Ward. It was neither a cooperative or a government run program. Quite frankly, the framers of the Bill of Rights had bigger ideas on their minds and they were trusting that future generations would have a bit more common sense than some now demonstrate in the public arena. They also were human beings, not Gods, and knew they were framing the Bill of Rights based on the realities of that time. We have at this point in our own history also had enough of King George (Bush), that is, and that is why our new President has been committed to presenting his ideas in public instead of (as in the previous administration) having no ideas of his own or keeping them behind closed doors so “the little people” won’t know what is going to happen until it runs us over.

Like the outburst “you lie” (demonstrated by a right wing radical in our congress) you are comparing apples with oranges…the President was stating what HIS requirements would be for health care reform. He, our President, was not stating the contents of the House or Senate versions. Government 101…the President is part of the Executive Branch, the Congress is part of the Legislative Branch, and the Supreme Court is the Judicial Branch. THIS President speaks for himself and hopefully the Congress is listening but then it is very difficult to listen when one’s mouth is running…and sorry to say, unless you are a woman and you have learned to multitask.

The President, in fact, does not want to have illegals included under health care reform. So, as Grandma says, who needs to clean their ears out?!


jcullen24
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 12:53 pm

David Kris said,”This is surreal” What was surreal? The fact that noiw, finally some one has finally read the constitution, and applied the tenants of constitutional law to the actions of goverment?

Finally we have representatives intelligently questioning the actions of the goverment, regaurdless of thier background.


Letters! She writes letters! – The Bananaverse
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:57 pm

[...] while well intentioned, really poorly executed. So now that it’s up for renewal (a process not without contention, I might add), there’s some discussion in Congress and because I’m on the Congress.org [...]


sparkleplenty
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:12 pm

ooooh, scare, scare,,,,,lose,lose your civil rights and the constitution. Hey it worked for the pugs, why not the Dems.


Jim
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:15 pm

Thank you, Al!


sparkleplenty
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:16 pm

And also thank the gods of the well we have a real Dem in Senator Al Franken to hold a mirror up to gubmunt as twer.


surgethis
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:27 pm

FIRST: The problem is that if you allow this then there will be abuse … it allows the government to easily abuse it for whatever purpose including spying on companies and individuals to monitor elements that have nothing to do with terrorism. It's a scam I believe that the shadow elite want in place to grab more power in all the ways that having freedom to tap any body can possible result. SECOND: Terrorism has been the excuse the existing power structure has used to wage illegal wars and commit war crimes on several continents. There is no reason why we should trust any of them … the whole system is rigged to subdue the population and funnel great wealth to the very few at the top. This is the nature across the board of what we are facing … Total corruption and total destruction of our constitution. Thanks Al for standing up for us.


surgethis
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:33 pm

The thugs and criminals that wear suits and shuffle in and around Washington are stunned that a Senator would dare question their agenda …. doesn't Franken realize his job is to manage the expectations of the American people against the powers of the elite and that the constitution is not really followed that much anymore. “This is surreal” very telling don't you think.


BmoreConstitutional
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:46 pm

Um. Don't all federal workers swear to uphold and defend the constitution? – Especially those in law enforcement and prosecutorial departments? To defer to the courts is especially yellow-bellied and weak-kneed. To say that having to understand and defend the constitution in the halls of government is surreal is evidence that we need some kind of regular retraining of all gubment employees on the meaning of the constitution – PARTICULARLY the preamble:

“We the people of the United States, in Order to form a more perfet Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, AND secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

YOU DON'T GET TO CHOOSE BETWEEN DEFENCE AND LIBERTY – BETWEEN SECURITY AND FREEDOM.


susanhass
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:47 pm

and isn't it amazing that right now, when these hearings are going on, the just happens to be an exposed terrorist plot in NYC? Coincidence? I think not!


muffler
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:55 pm

Thank You Al. Hey Republicans and Democrats – this is what is called defending the Constitution! You know that contract with the people that defines what you and the rest of the Federal government can and can't do? Yeah that dusty piece of paper you haven't read since junior high school.


dwyerzirish
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 1:57 pm

I am from MN and didn't vote for Franken…just so you know where I stand

It seems on the surface that Al is a constitutionalist, yea gods if that were only true.

Al is a politician and will use the consitution when it suits his liberal agenda and will set it aside when it doesn't so don't go elevating Al to a higher plain that he deserves.

Furthermore, Al is no more a Minnesotan than Hillary is a New Yorker, he hasn't lived in the state of MN for 20 years prior to running for Senate. With his money he was able to maintain a residence here and in NY and in CA. It seems like MN lost a senate seat and NY or CA got an extra one.


sigh
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:06 pm

It always helps if you first understand the meanings of “well-regulated” and “militia” at the time the Amendment was written. Naaaah that’s asking too much.

If you’re really interested in the correct answer, here it is:

http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndmea.html


sigh
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:07 pm

Militia is not the National Guard. This is too easy.


sigh
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:08 pm

Incorrect. Read what the Framers wrote when they were talking about the Amendments. It’s not hard!


joybartlett
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 2:14 pm

How wonderful to have an intelligent, articulate and critically thinking senator! Thank you, Senator Franken.


sigh
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:16 pm

“The courts disagreed with conservatives on abortion 7-2 but you don’t here them saying it’s a valid opinion.”

Abortion is pretty straightforward. Roe v Wade is unconstitutional for the simple fact that the federal government doesn’t have the authority as defined in the Constitution to regulate abortion. It should have been left to the states, where the power resided before Roe v Wade. Nothing complicated about federalism.

If you want the argument to remain on the federal level, abortion is unconstitutional because it denies the unborn baby the 5th Amendment right to life that has already begun.


Name
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 2:38 pm

“…and Republicans emphasizing the need to have all possible tools for law enforcement available because another major terrorist attack could occur at any time.” Granted, I'm a little more repulican than anything else, but how long are they going to use this scare tactic?


iwpoe
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 2:41 pm

“To defer to the courts is especially yellow-bellied and weak-kneed.”

No. The courts are the final and authoritative interpreters of the constitution. It is not the DOJ's job to do the final interpretive work of the courts. It's not their job to say with authority that “we have satisfied the requirements of the constitution”. Only the courts can make that claim with authority,

Now, it would be flagrantly negligent for them to proceed without having some sort of legal reasoning based on legal history on the matter and a particular interpretation of the constitution (they do and in so acting on it they believe themselves to be “upholding and defending the constitution”), but it's absurd to think that Mr. Kris could just produce such a reasoning at any time in response to any question without preparation.


newsrackblog.com » Blog Archive » Sentences of the day
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:48 pm

[...] Senator Al Franken, D-MN, asking Department of Justice official David Kris how the Fourth Amendment can be reconciled with roving wiretaps.  (The Obama Justice Department is seeking reauthorization of PATRIOT Act provisions for such wiretaps.) [...]


Don Kalbach
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 2:57 pm

We need more people in the Congress who aren't lawyers. It seems that people who know a lot about the law are adept at finding loopholes, and they spend most of their time doing just that. Clear, logical thought isn't on the agenda — loopholes are. People in Congress keep screaming about going back to the Constitution, but when they actually have to do it . . .


mysticalpippin
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:03 pm

again and again and again and again and again and…..never gonna stop…..again and again and again……..


slva
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:08 pm

I'm sorry, but if Mr. Kris is a DOJ attorney testifying before the Congress, he should be able to explain the decisions of the “other branches of the government” that support the warrantless wiretap provisions. It is not “surreal” to have to explain to the Senator the journey through the courts that supposedly has led to the “constitutionality” of the warrantless wiretap laws. And in the end, the Constitution should always be the touchstone for activities of ANY branch of the government.


Solja
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:08 pm

Yeah, that sounds about right. I want Congress devoid of lawyers, which should make lawmaking easier.

Not.


Solja
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:08 pm

Yeah, that sounds about right. I want Congress devoid of lawyers, which should make lawmaking easier.

Not.


Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official | The Accidental Patriot
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:10 pm

[...] story by Daphne Eviatar is a repost from the Washington Independent:  http://washingtonindependent.com/60611/al-franken-reads-the-4th-amendment-to-justice-department-off... Just in case he wasn’t familiar with it, Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) decided to read the Fourth [...]


johnhkennedy
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:20 pm

“Well done Al Franken” Press for expanding Justice Dept #Torture Probe to include all that Conspired To Torture (a Federal Crime 20 yrs to life)

Prosecuting just the CIA Agents that followed the orders of Bush and Cheney's Torture Co-Conspirators will accomplish almost nothing in protecting we voters against right wing extremists. The higher ups caused the Torture and they must pay for it. The extremists who advocate torture of captives may very well eventually use it against Americans.

Many of our Congressional Democrats are reluctant to even discuss the word Torture in public and are refusing to investigate and prosecute even the obvious torture crimes of Bush and Cheney. We voters will have to push them hard to get them to call for torture prosecution.

Get out in the streets in front of your Congressional Representative's office and raise hell. Start your own “prosecution” protest group.

KEEP ASKING ALL POLITICIANS AT ALL PUBLIC EVENTS

“WHY DO YOU SUPPORT TORTURE?”
If they aren't actively calling for enforcement of our Federal Torture Laws, They DO Support Torture and a dual standard of Justice.

SIGN THE PETITIONS
Demanding
prosecution for all those leaders
in Bush's Administration that
Conspired to Torture at ANGRYVOTERS.ORG

http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG

Only Prosecution Stops Torture, Abuse of Power, our Constitution & Rule Of Law


MIatesta
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:31 pm

yes this is one thing that baffles me most about conservatives! If they want the government out of their lives why do they keep expanding its power to prosecute any person it wants to? where's the logic in that?


cee ro
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:36 pm

I truly believe that after Obama, Franken should be our next President. He's very intelligent. I think more intelligent then he lets on…Maybe, he'll be asked to run as Obama's running mate in 2012!
I understands the way he believes..I've read his books. He's sane and understands the human condition. One thing though, I don't think he'd be farting arouind with Wall Street…I think he'd reregulate the entire system first and ask questions later….I believe he could be our greatest President.


JazzyJim
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:56 pm

I love Al. Not only for his comedic wit, which is obviously born of his education and the ironic, but for the plain and simple fact that he's sooooo good, that Hannity and O'Reilly “hate” him – can't get a better compliment than that – accept Beck is probably fearful of him too. You see, when someone can with reason, intellect, fact and history on their side make the moronic appear moronic, as Al does to the Fox Fools, they can't stand it!!


JazzyJim
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 3:59 pm

Do you know whom isn't screaming in support of Mr. Franken and the Constitution? The Republicans.


sheburns
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:05 pm

Sorry, but we are a nation of laws, equal justice under the law. Equality cannot be created without law. Understanding the law is important.
The problem with Congress is that they complicate the lawmaking process. Non-lawyers do the same thing. They write and pass 1000 page bills, that include riders that have nothing to do with the main topic to satisfy lobbyists and constituents alike, all so they can get re-elected.
Either demand term limits, or demand focused bills/laws with no unrelated riders.
Either way,..change will only come about from an involved electorate. It used to be we could depend on our representatives in both House & Senate, but they've become the problem.


Top Ten: Most Ridiculous Things I Read Today | Reality Liberation Front
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:05 pm

[...] wiretaps” which do not explicitly state who or what is to be searched,  Senator Al Franken had to point out that what the official was saying…CLEARLY VIOLATES the Fourth Amendment: [...]


jonhs
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:24 pm

So Republican's trust the government enough to spy on us, but not to provide us with adequate healthcare???


zeiche
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:29 pm

Spying is easier and more fun.


JazzyJim
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:30 pm

It happens EVERYTIME the Republicans run on that platform – less government – then, there is “more” government. What they mean by “less” government is – “less regulation” – i.e, “trust the banks, trust big business” – well America, under 8 years of Bush – you've seen how that worked out. “More government and our tax dollars bailing out the banks that have been screwing us over – deregulation – no one minding the store”.


C N
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:33 pm

cee ro…someone reads an amendment and you think that qualifies them for office and could be our greatest president? thanks commentors.


JazzyJim
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:33 pm

You do realize that Bush and the Republicans are the orchestrator of this “Patriot Act” – which ironically isn't Patriotic at all. Why don't Republican's that watch Faux News – call them on this hypocrisy? They sold you, as they always do, on “Patriotism” – while taking away your rights. See, this is why mainstream and most of America is anger at the brainwashing by the GOP using FOX Propaganda “News”…for their political views.


JazzyJim
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:34 pm

Beck Alert! Beck Alert! “You Like!”


JazzyJim
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:34 pm

*”You Lie!”


Kim
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:39 pm

Just an ordinary guy, doing extradinary oversight.
Go Franken, Go!
Spine and cajones!


JimOSullivan
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 4:42 pm

Now that Franken's in the Senate, Let's hope he read the tenth, too
Stop me if you've heard this one. Q: How does a liberal count to ten? A: 1, 3, 4,5 ,6, 7, 8, 9 .


Obama Administration: New State Secrets Rules = Really, You Can Trust Us | dv8-designs
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:48 pm

[...] out for state secrets reasons. And it’s left up to a former comedian, now politician to remind the Justice Department of the Fourth Amendment? The “just trust us, we won’t abuse the system” justification isn’t [...]


sdb536
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:11 pm

you are officially an idiot. I keep a gun to keep my house and self safe, never carry in pubic. I refuse to fight wars in this day and age. WW II was necessary, what the hell are we fighting for now?


amberlivingston
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:14 pm

The judges who approved those “edits” to the Constitution did so for Bush/Cheney.


ravar
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:14 pm

For once I may be able to support the Patriot Act. There may be times when the exact name of an individual is unknown but his ph # is known through assocaition with known suspects. You know: There are known unknowns & known knowns….


sdb536
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:15 pm

it's not state stupidity, its on a ballot. Which means its still up for vote. Stupidity is not understanding what you are talking about. States rights are extremely important. Can you name me just one thing that the government has done more efficiently than the private sector? Just one.


The Everlasting Phelps » Blog Archive » Credit Where Credit is Due
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:19 pm

[...] Now that is a change.  And a welcome change, even if it comes from Al Fuckin’ Franken. Category: Change  |  Comment (RSS)  |  Trackback [...]


duder
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:20 pm

I think you missed the point.


Jim Bob
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:23 pm

He was trying to get the Patriot Act reauthorized. I'm assuming that means be prepared to justify it's existence. Mr. Kris, if he had proper justification for the reauthorization, should have been prepared for a real question.


nicholasjh1
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:30 pm

Don't be obtuse. They were only including the amendment reading.. There are many other reasons that he may be a good president, some of which they listed.


thomasjwilliams
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:32 pm

This is what happens when someone is elected who is not beholden to any interest group and displays plain common sense. You get some good honest questions and no tippy-toeing.

To be sure, the reading of any clause of the Constitution does not always prescribe standards that are as clear as they might appear. Still, the witness from the DOJ should have been able to address this. As a lawyer, he should be able to comment about existing precedent. I assume since he is an Assistant AG, he has some familiarity with 4th Amendment decisions of the Supreme Court.


DossyDomo
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:43 pm

ROTFL, Like anyone in the Justice DEpt cares about the stupid ammendments! Those got thrown out the window a LONG time ago!

RT
http://www.privacy-web.pro.tc


Tom
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:45 pm

So democrats trust the government to provide adequate health care? Wow, democrats really ARE that stupid!


rstan
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:46 pm

There is not much I can agree with Franken on. However, when it comes to an issue such as this, I think the constitution has the final say. As a conservative (do not read that as Republican), I think the constitution should be followed to the T, and the Patriot Act is taking away the very freedoms the founding fathers fought to defend. We have to stop this before it gets even more out of hand.


thankfulforpatriots
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:47 pm

I'm sorry but did you all miss the fact that we just arrested a bunch of people who were caught preparing weapons of mass destruction to blow up Americans by using the very methods that the USA PATRIOT act provides us with? As a resident of NYC, I have no problem if you want to tap my phones or check on my internet history if it means you can do the same to someone who is trying to harm me. You crazy Franken loving liberals are really shortsighted.


david jones
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:56 pm

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin


atruepatriot
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:59 pm

In response to thankfulforpatriots.

“Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” Benjamin Franklin otherwise known as Big B


atruepatriot
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 5:59 pm

In response to thankfulforpatriots.

“Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” Benjamin Franklin otherwise known as Big B


whatthefuckisapatriot
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:09 pm

thankfulforpatriots works for the government.

His job is to weed out the non-sheep so we can be identified and made to comply.

He welcomes the government proctoscope, and has been known to pre-lube himself in happy anticipation of its glorious insertion. Being spied upon in this special fashion is one of the perks of compliance.

I feel safer already.


grendelwraith
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:20 pm

The absence of evidence, is not the evidence of absence.
A warrant should not be issued if one person talks to another.
You would need evidence as to what they were talking about.
Overhearing evidence on a legally wiretapped phone should generate a warrant for the second party.

The mere fact that two parties talked is not enough.


Liberalssuck
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:22 pm

LOL @ everyone ignoring the actual facts “thankfulforpatriots” brought to the table…and the arrests made just recently. Do you liberals have a clue??

And I love that Ben Franklin quote…so overused by Liberals. How about the fact that NO ONE has given up ANY Liberties with the Patriot Act. Please explain to us here exactly how the Patriot Act has changed your life.


catbeller
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:23 pm

The slaves are free. Get over it.


LiberalDoucheBaggins
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:28 pm

Franken was fraudulenty put into office in the first place. How is this douchebag even in office?? Why hasnt he been removed and investigated??

http://www.newscopy.org/2008/11/the-curious-mr-…

32 votes found in a trunk. 246 votes in another election precinct lost, then found. Another 100 votes, all for Franken. No votes for Coleman. That's statistically impossible.


conservativessuck
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:41 pm

Not even close DouchBaggins.. Try drying out your martini soaked brain before you get on the internet again. Let's go back a few years to November 2000 if you really are interested in stolen elections. We ended up with THE WORST president and vice president in american history. He couldn't wait to get in there and finish what his daddy started 10 years earlier. Bush and Cheney should have both been hung for treason.


stasiastjames
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:45 pm

Oooh poor baby. Hit a nerve did I?


justicetotherealevildoers
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:49 pm

…and still should be!


freedommom
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:50 pm

Give 'em hell, Franken.

Way to stand up for the Constitution.


grammar socialist
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:54 pm

This is completely incorrect; Bush & Cheney should have been 'hanged,' not hung. Though lack of the latter may explain their “little man complex.”


Dan Dren
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 6:57 pm

I disagree with Franken on many things, but he got this one right so I commend him for that. It's too bad that Obama voted to keep this unConstitutional provision in place.


jamestkirks
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:15 pm

Now I like Al Franken even more!


Dave
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:16 pm

I like that Franken empasized that the bill seems to violate the Constitution. If foreign or domestic threats force us to violate the very document our country is founded upon, they win an ideological battle that dwafs any physical threats.


Dave
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:16 pm

I like that Franken empasized that the bill seems to violate the Constitution. If foreign or domestic threats force us to violate the very document our country is founded upon, they win an ideological battle that dwafs any physical threats.


ConservativesAreObsolete
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:23 pm

The Partriot Act has changed my life because it enables the government to circumvent my rights. No one ever said that you have to constantly be taking advantage of your rights. They are pillars, and if you don't like that, than shut up. You are so un-American, I wonder why you even bother giving a shit about the Patriot Act. If you don't care, then again… shut up.

Your name sounds like something I would have come up with when I was 12. Grow up.


ConservativesAreObsolete
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:29 pm

You don't care about your own personal rights, and you are too much of a coward to stand for something right. You are a poor representation of an American, and a weak example of a person in general. Don't co opt the loss of 9/11 to justify your point of view. You can't speak for them. You should be more worried about yourself, and less about imaginary people trying to harm you. You are a dangerous, pathetic person. Shame on you.


Anonymous
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 12:34 am

Bajagirl, “promote the general welfare” is in the PREAMBLE. It’s not in the text. Surely you don’t believe that the Constitution empowered the Federal Government to to anything, as long as it was supposed to advance one of the worthy goals in the preamble! Or, do you?


Paul M. Jones » Blog Archive » Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 8:49 pm

[...] via The Washington Independent » Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official. [...]


Renewing the expiring portions of the Patriot Act « End the Echo weblog
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 8:50 pm

[...] Al Franken asked David Kris from the Dept of Justice about the 4th amendment as reported in the Washington Independent. Noting that he [Al Franken] received a copy of the Constitution when he was sworn in as a senator, [...]


AC
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 7:57 pm

Good luck in old age without MEDICARE.. private insurance will suit you well!


dww
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 8:09 pm

Good for Franken, but this just proves he's a demagogue…after all, he's already voted FOR these two bills:
S. 1390: National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2010 (By constitution, the president should only have war powers after Congress has officially declared war – Franken's vote for this bill was a vote against the constitution)
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=s…

Senate Vote On Passage: H.R. 2892: Department of Homeland Security Appropriations Act, 2010 (DHS – 'nuff said!)
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=s…


PATRIOT Debate Round-Up: Dems Press Obama for Reforms; Leahy Bill a Good Start But Doesn’t Stack Up to Last Week’s JUSTICE Bill | Left to chance
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 9:24 pm

[...] of terrorism, is mostly being used in drug investigations. Another was Senator Franken’s reading of the Fourth Amendment to Kris to make the point that the John Doe roving wiretap authority is constitutionally dubious [...]


Anonymous
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 1:25 am

He doesn’t have the emotional stability. I met him once at a golf course in Hawaii. They didn’t have a tee time for him and his son. He went on a 10 minute cursing tirade, c word, f bombs with threats…all in front of little old ladies and his son. He was embarrassing. Well, maybe that will make him a good politician.


Name
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 8:33 pm

They just released report that shows very small % of Patriot act-authorized unconstitutional “sneak and peek” home invasions are related to terrorism whatsoever. Not surprisingly 65% of the requests were related to non-terrorist drug cases.


MrDlCastle
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 8:45 pm

Interesting. I didn't know that these was in the works. Didn't the security level just increase recently due to some alleged terrorist plot?
Coincidence?


Joe
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 8:51 pm

Good for Senator Franken. At least we know somebody up there has read at least part of the constitution. Now I wonder if Senator Franken would read the 2nd, 9th, or 10th amendments to someone in his own party.


Rich
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 8:58 pm

Only three of the 763 “sneak-and-peek” requests in fiscal year 2008 involved terrorism cases, according to a July 2009 report from the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts.

Think about that. Only 3 out of 763 requests to search without a warrant involved terrorism cases.

If roving wiretaps have a practical value, then we must FIRST have laws protecting law abiding citizens from abuses. Specifically, if someone requests a sneak & peek or roving wiretap and is later unable to justify those requests, then that person must go to federal prison for a minimum of 10 years for each unjustified wiretap. Plain and simple.


John Griogair Bell’s Blog » Digest for September 24th
Pingback posted September 24, 2009 @ 10:06 pm

[...] Shared The Washington Independent » Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official. [...]


madelynwriter
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 9:06 pm

Fuck yourself.


stuartg
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 10:27 pm

3000 or so people in the US died of terrorism in the last 10 years.

How many died due to cancer, heart disease, smoking and alcohol related illnesses, etc?


Jconway
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 10:28 pm

Wow…he read an amendment that is made of 53 words, and they make it sound like he pulled out the encyclopedia and read volume “A”. He wants decision makers to justify what they have done to the constitution and wants clarification. Well done Al. Keep doing good work.


VermontLibrul
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 10:45 pm

Good, Thankful. Glad to hear it. Then you won't mind when they take away your first amendment right to make us all a little safer, and then your second ammendment rights to make us all a little safer….


PragmatismFTW
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 10:55 pm

A police officer searched my car for drugs because I was parked by a bridge in a public park. I asked him on what grounds and he said the patriot act authorized them to search vehicles parked near bridges. I had parked there to read the memorial plaque on the bridge. And I was treated like a criminal.


FriendlyGrizzly
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 10:59 pm

I will give credit where it is due, even for a man like Franken, who I find repugnant. Well done, Senator!


jmorris376
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 11:11 pm

Wow, a biased account of the exchange for sure! I am, in general, against the roving wiretap clause of the patriot act, but Kris looked anything BUT flustered in my opinion. If anything, he was exasperated with the very uninformed question framed by Sen. Franken, as well as his belittling remark “I know what that is,” as if Kris was talking down to him.

Watch for yourself: http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.com/2009/0…


martinweiss
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 11:40 pm

As Senator Franken accurately observed, provisions of the “USA Patriot Act”
abolish most of the Bill of Rights.
Without a majority vote of the states, this is unconstitutional.
To illustrate, only in 1995 did the state of Mississippi vote to ratify the 13th Amendment, abolishing slavery. Seems ridiculous, but it is the law.
And the United States will live or die by its law.


martinweiss
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 11:43 pm

There's lies, damn lies, and statistics.


martinweiss
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 11:47 pm

Republicans trust the government with executions, but not healthcare, unless they have Medicare.


martinweiss
Comment posted September 24, 2009 @ 11:49 pm

The GOP is OK with the Death Penalty, but worried about death panels.


JJ
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:19 am

As if we don’t already have death panels. It’s called a private company cutting you off because you cost them too much. Same thing, and it happens today.


JJ
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:21 am

Heh. Politicians. Sounds like John McCain to me.


FoxNewsLies
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 12:31 am

J,
I did watch the video and he was flustered. No doubt about it. It is not an uninformed question. It actually cuts to the heart of the issue which is how can this other branch of government ( we all know who they are – Republican scum majority) justify over ruling the 4th amendment. Describing an individual? Really? So we could have warrantless wiretaps on any arab male with a beard wearing sandals? You have obviously never been racially profiled. And as a white guy myself I am glad we don't allow this practise. What with a black muslim kenyan as president and all. GTH!


FoxNewsLies
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 12:31 am

J,
I did watch the video and he was flustered. No doubt about it. It is not an uninformed question. It actually cuts to the heart of the issue which is how can this other branch of government ( we all know who they are – Republican scum majority) justify over ruling the 4th amendment. Describing an individual? Really? So we could have warrantless wiretaps on any arab male with a beard wearing sandals? You have obviously never been racially profiled. And as a white guy myself I am glad we don't allow this practise. What with a black muslim kenyan as president and all. GTH!


Anonymous
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:34 am

What is foolish is to fear something that does not and cannot exist, death panels, while supporting something that puts life itself in the hands of a notoriously flawed process. Just yesterday Texas apologized for executing an innocent man.
Trusting government with executions but not medical bills is beyond foolish, it is pitchforks and torches stupidity.
Perhaps the one who looks foolish is the one who cannot perceive the inherent logical contradictions and irony.
Or maybe the 40% illiterate are all GOP voters, and cannot distinguish between death panels and death penalty, read road signs or the Constitution.
If you fail to see the humor, I’ll work more on my delivery.


Al Franken reads the Fourth Amendment to DoJ official at PATRIOT Act hearings | dv8-designs
Pingback posted September 25, 2009 @ 1:40 am

[...] Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official [...]


jmorris376
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 1:14 am

FNL,
Thanks for your response and opinion. If you believe his exasperation with the question should be interpreted as “flustered,” that is all well and good. While I enjoy Franken's frank candor during conversations, to trump a complex issue by reading an amendment to people who understand the constitution fairly well (at least I would like to believe so), I define this as uninformed (it does not further the dialogue or clarify the position). I thought Kris's references to supreme court decisions is the best defense for the program, as there is legal precedence for certain forms of warantless wiretapping. Also, Article 2 of the constitution is continually being debated in terms of executive power in international military security. To me Franken's position, although a sentiment I may share affinity with, is no better than the Right-wing citizens who claim the 2nd amendment for their automatic weapons.

It is funny you say, “Republican scum majority,” as there is no majority in any branch that I know of that would be considered “Republican” or even “conservative.” Calling people scum makes the whole affair harder, as everyone just gets stupidly riled up against the ad hominem rather than the issue.


baligeek
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 1:17 am

Wrong,
Every study, recount, follow-up recount, newspaper recount shows Bush won. I am not a Bush fan but you sound like some crazy truther or birth certificate loonie. Bush won the election.


baligeek
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 1:20 am

If you don't see the difference between those two items then you shouldn't be voting. Stop making yourself look foolish.


tappit
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 1:22 am

stuartg — right on! What is the figure of deaths on motor highways each year? Somewhere around 40K? Ultra conservatives seem to be driven by fear, but then bully others. When I was young, I thought that fear and bullying was an odd combination. As I became more educated in psychology, I learned that bullying is a symptom of fear and frustration at not being in control.


Franken Lies
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 1:22 am

Al Franken is as clueless as ever.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/html/amdt…

He can joke around all he likes but in the end the joke is on anyone who voted for this clown


baligeek
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 1:27 am

Kinda like the union thugs that have been beating people at town hall meetings. The unions have been dimished so much that they have resorted to bullying and actual beatings.


Al Franken reads the Fourth Amendment to DoJ official at PATRIOT Act hearings | Geek News and Musings
Pingback posted September 25, 2009 @ 2:40 am

[...] Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official [...]


B
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 2:11 am

I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something: I think Senator Franken asked a valid (and even interesting) question. The Constitution says you need a warrant to get up in people's business, and that the warrant requires probable cause, including a description of the person whose business the government is getting all up in. Al asks how you meet this requirement without the person's name. Good question, right? I can certainly imagine ways of doing so, and I think the assistant attorney general must be familiar with some. So why didn't the dude take the question seriously and say something like “well, Senator Franken, it's sometimes the case that we have different kinds of identifying information available, but don't yet have a complete picture, including a name. When you put X, Y and Z information together, the courts have argued that it adds up to probably cause that meets the requirements of the 4th amendment.” I mean, the dude has to be some expert, right? We know *he* knows the 4th amendment–the point here is a question of interpretation. All good questions of interpretation start from the original text. I think people (on both sides) are making more of it than there is.


asdf
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 2:15 am

Rights are not just pillars to be circumvented, or pushed aside so easy.


Al Garven
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 2:16 am

Franken is a twit


Anonymous
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 7:38 am

I’m sure he was prepared for many “real questions”, but this hearing was not about the constitutionality of the patriot act- something which neither the DOJ nor the Senate has the authority to determine. Besides, to do justice to such a question would it would have to be answered carefully and with careful and specific preparation and materials designed for the question and not off the cuff at the random bequest of senator.


Anonymous
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 7:44 am

Interpreting the constitution so that it could apply to all the myriad of possible circumstances is an incredibly difficult task that *requires* a class of learned legal scholars and a legal apparatus working together at the project of trying to get the thing all ironed out. Your sentiment is one that makes the meaning of the constitution as varied as the emotions of politicians can make it.


Al Franken reads the Fourth Amendment to DoJ official at PATRIOT Act hearings | BLOGCHINA
Pingback posted September 25, 2009 @ 4:00 am

[...] Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official [...]


Anonymous
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 8:24 am

Huh? I thought Republicans were the strict constructionists. What did I miss?


dai_chan
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 3:30 am

Clarify, please.


Jay
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 3:39 am

I will admit it: I was skeptical of (Senator) Al Franken when he decided to run for office. But when he got elected, I sat up and took notice; maybe the people of the great state of Minnesota know something I don't (despite the “Great Mall” and all that ;-) ).
Since his election, he has pleasantly surprised me time and gain. He takes the time to research the topics, and make up his own mind (and speaks it too); unlike 99% of the senators (Democrats and Republicans alike) who swallow whatever the lobbyists spoon them like babies being fed Gerber.
Hats off to Senator Franken! I hope I can see the day when the majority of the senators are conscientious representatives like him.
Of course, there are those who will just look at the “D” after his name and immediately label him as a “commie”, “socialist”, “leftist”, or some other insult du jour. To them, I say: YOU PEOPLE ARE THE REAL TRAITORS. ENOUGH with your fascist thinking. You spineless, weak quislings are the reason that this nation is in the state it is in.


Al Franken reads the Fourth Amendment to DoJ official at PATRIOT Act hearings | Newsblog
Pingback posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:00 am

[...] Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official [...]


dorianwildegray
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 4:10 am

This is a complete breach on human rights….it is completely hypocritical to the basis that America was founded on…and they use the excuses of “mass weaponery”….there are democratic ways to maintain public safety….this “Patriotic Act” borders on despotic hypernationalism….If one was an actual American, one wouldn't take away the foundation of liberty…this are natural rights, the government shouldn't take them away..under NO circumstances…


JJ
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:00 am

“This is surreal”? Just answer the God-damned question without mumbling Mr. Kris.


JJ
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:02 am

He wasn't joking. Nor do I think it's a joking matter that the Constitution be followed.


JJ
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:05 am

If you go before the Senate, you should be prepared to hear all about the Constitution, whether you are familiar with it or not. That's the reason every senator receives a copy when they get voted in. They are supposed to keep it in mind at all times. They are supposed to use it when making decisions. That this jackass felt compelled to say it was surreal shows what he's made of. I think he should quit.


JJ
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:09 am

We can pretty much expect that any new power the government receives will never be rescinded by the government. That president Obama voted to keep the provision in place was to be expected. It'll be a constant fight on our parts to get rid of things like this.


Ruggy
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 6:26 am

My paraphrase:

Kris: We've got probable cause that SOMEONE must be planning a crime somewhere, we just don't know who or what or where, and the courts don't require that we know the criminal's name – only to describe him. We broadly describe the criminal as someone who might use the phone or the internet to plan or commit crimes. Therefore we can wiretap anyone & everyone, anywhere and everywhere. And by the way, Franken… you're in the wrong place. Reading the Constitution is considered “surreal” here at the DOJ.


blackcloak
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 7:27 am

Kris is probably a lawyer (or at least he's heard how a lawyer is likely to respond to such a question) so his surreal comment is just the standard distain a lawyer expresses when a comment is made that contradicts case law. Of course, he is responding in a “relative” way, i.e. given how the courts have judged this point, there is no sense in debating it. And Franken is using an “absolute” scale when he returns to the original basis. Kris should have said that government will use the court's decision until the Congress overrules it, throwing the matter back at Franken as a challenge. Of course Kris' tone reveals that he supports the current interpretation, and that is the dangerous aspect of his revelation. He (Kris) should be removed from his position. Let's see how long he survives.


blackcloak
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 7:29 am

Oh you silly goose.


SayUncle » more like this, please
Pingback posted September 25, 2009 @ 8:31 am

[...] off to Al Franken, of all people: Franken, who opened by acknowledging that unlike most of his colleagues in the [...]


blackcloak
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 7:34 am

Actually the 13th Amendment does not abolish slavery. It states that slavery shall only exist in prisions. If you are a prisioner, you are the property (a slave) of the Federal Governemnt. The Federal Government reserves slave ownership for itself. We're soooo wonderful, aren't we.


blackcloak
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 7:44 am

Who is that “someone” pray tell?


Such a kidder, that Franken! « The Quick and the Dead
Pingback posted September 25, 2009 @ 8:55 am

[...] a kidder, that Franken! Al read the 4th Amendment to a Justice Department official who was arguing as if it were new to [...]


blackcloak
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 7:55 am

However you feel about the vote count in Florida, the fact of the matter is that the right leaning Supreme Court effectively appointed Bush to the position of President. The real vote difference, when it came down to the bottom line, was one.


blackcloak
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 7:55 am

However you feel about the vote count in Florida, the fact of the matter is that the right leaning Supreme Court effectively appointed Bush to the position of President. The real vote difference, when it came down to the bottom line, was one.


blackcloak
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 8:09 am

Is this your translation of Kris' comment?


Josh Arnold
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 8:44 am

i would like a video please


Anonymous
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 2:02 pm

How did you become such an ass? Death panels cannot exist? They exist right now in Canada and Britain. They decide that a 24 week preemie baby shouldn’t get medical attention. That certainly is a death panel for that baby.
With regards to executions, the average stay on death row is 11 years and 5 months with a trial, a mandatory review, appeals, re-appeals, etc. You won’t get that with the bureacracy of the federal government running an eventual multi-trillion dollar program.
You are comparing apples and oranges and trying to draw a conclusion that appeals to you but is not logical.


Al Franken Apparently Understand the Fourth Amendment « A Geek With Guns
Pingback posted September 25, 2009 @ 11:03 am

[...] opinion of Senator Franken. Apparently the man understands at least on piece of the constitution, amendment four. His words on the subject: Noting that he received a copy of the Constitution when he was sworn in [...]


justin999
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 10:14 am

Just because it's in the Constitution means it's right?? No. That's like if you question your boss about something and her responds “because I said so.” Except in this case, WE are the bosses. And WE can all decide to change the constitution or keep it as-is. There are many laws that are in a gray-area of the constitution. Only Congress can declare war… right? Well many presidents have authorized “OPERATIONS” that in any other time would be considered a war. Just playing devil's advocate here.
—————————-
Finding the cheapest deals online everyday! http://www.bestpriceonit.com


American Defense Enterprises » Patriot Act and Politics — who knew I’d like Al Franken?
Pingback posted September 25, 2009 @ 11:21 am

[...] Anyway — When Al Franken (from SNL) was being confirmed for the US Senate, I never expected to form an opinion about him as a politician.  Then I found this story where “Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official” [...]


Sweet Jesus, What Is That? « No Time for Trivia
Pingback posted September 25, 2009 @ 12:08 pm

[...] It is called the United States Constitution.  It is supposed to mean something.  It is interesting that it took a comedian to refresh the memory of Justice Department attorneys as to some of its provisions and, one wonders, to its existence. Al Franken Reads 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official [...]


You Get The . Info » Obama Administration: New State Secrets Rules = Really, You Can Trust Us – 1609th Edition
Pingback posted September 25, 2009 @ 12:29 pm

[...] out for state secrets reasons. And it’s left up to a former comedian, now politician to remind the Justice Department of the Fourth Amendment? The “just trust us, we won’t abuse the system” justification isn’t [...]


Anonymous
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 4:59 pm

I would have taken you seriously if you had gotten your facts straight. As it is, all I can say is that its obvious I really got to you. Yeah!! Now, be careful with your blood pressure.


Anonymous
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:33 pm

The situation is far worse than you depict. The ‘terrorists’ are winning every day because of the enormous resources that have been reassigned to counter them, and because of the time lost by millions of individuals. And then there was Bush worrying about his legacy if he doesn’t have a war under his belt, and daddy’s insult in Kuwait. And then there is that age old tool of simple minded politicians: fear. You’ve probably seen your share of this during the summer. Good observers have no difficulty recognizing it. When citizens accept leadership as the act of shoving all the little ducks into one long row (symbolically, the lines at airports leading to the metal detectors, or choose your favorite image), you know you’re in a heap of dodo.


pinkcrickets
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 12:40 pm

This is a misunderstanding via a gross simplification. It's not about whether it's right or not, but if it's in the constitution, it's considered the supreme law of the land, and Franken's point is that existing laws cannot contradict the constitution, as he's trying to point out the Patriot Act does – it doesn't matter whether the constitution is 'right' or not.

Moreover, while we are, in theory, “the bosses”, of the constitution, you make it seem as if a national referendum is all that would be needed to alter the constitution. We do not live in a direct democracy, and it would be up to the elected officials to decide to change it or keep it as is. Granted, the elected officials theoretically respond to public pressure – but they also respond to lobbying and their own personal belief systems. This is why amending the constitution is difficult.

The language “only congress can declare war” has always been upheld. Formally declaring war isn't, nor has it ever been, necessary for actually making war. Declaring war is a political action and not a physical one – for example, “wartime” in during WW II the US arrived before Pearl Harbor. However, Senator Franken's point is that the language of the fourth amendment IS actually very explicit.


Anonymous
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 6:21 pm

Has this video been manipulated?

http://www.casttv.com/video/lgti4f1/kathy-castor-healthcare-town-hall-meeting-in-tampa-8-6-video


Anonymous
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 6:25 pm

Or this…
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/08/new-video-from-stl-town-hall-beating/

Saying it didn’t happen doesn’t make it true. We have allied ourselves with the unions and this is what we will get. Intimidation and violence.


Splint Chesthair
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 1:33 pm

I wonder if Franken has the same strict interpretation of the 2nd amendment as he does the 4th. If he does, then I support his argument, if he doesn't, then he's just another Washington hypocrite.


baligeek
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 1:48 pm

So it wasn't stolen as conservativessuck says in his post. It followed the constitution AND was later shown to be the correct decision. I have a strong dislike of Bush but this stolen election stuff just makes us look stupid.


researchbeforeyouspeak
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 2:18 pm

A small example of how it was indeed stolen…in my own hometown no less.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2005/08/0080696


Obama Administration: New State Secrets Rules = Really, You Can Trust Us | The-Informer
Pingback posted September 25, 2009 @ 3:23 pm

[...] out for state secrets reasons. And it’s left up to a former comedian, now politician to remind the Justice Department of the Fourth Amendment? The “just trust us, we won’t abuse the system” justification isn’t [...]


msky
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 2:27 pm

Can you please tell me where in the 2nd amendment does it say the right to buy AK-47, hollow point bullets and a grenade launcher, cause I am confused. And do you think your right to a 'well organized militia' will be taken away and you will not be able to assemble with your fellow men to defend US against invading British solders carrying muskets?


99doug
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 2:27 pm

Notice how the Democrats only quote the Constitution when it suits their agenda. Otherwise it's a living breathing document.

You people spout liberty until we are attacked and then you hide behind brave people and expect them to do whatever is necessary to protect your sorry *ss. When the smoke clears you then proceed to question the tactics used to keep you safe.


Name
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 2:38 pm

The point of being able to form a well-regulated militia is slowly slipping away, what with all the new gun-control laws.

The 2nd amendment exists so that average citizens have a way of defending themselves if their government runs a muck. Slowly but surely out rights to defend ourselves with firearms is being taken from us, and eventually there will be no one left to have the ability to oppose the government.

But that's ok with you, isn't it msky? Because the government wouldn't wrong its citizens, would it?


Hector
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 2:47 pm

“A WELL REGULATED MILITIA”

That means the government can regulate it, i.e. make you get a background check or not carry one into a bar where people are drinking. gun nuts often forget the well-regulated part….


Hector
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 2:51 pm

i was in 9th grade and went to school in manhattan on 9/11, i didnt miss one day of school. i never hid behind anyone, especially any republican scumbags who steal other nations oil


baligeek
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 2:53 pm

I have done research…voter fraud does not mean it was stolen. It means there was fraud but does not mean it would change the result of the election.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/04/us/st-louis-s…
In this case, predominantly democrat precincts saw voter turnout above 100% of the population.
The cries of stolen elections can be made by both sides and as I said earlier, it just makes us look like whiners. Should the GOP go back to the JFK election and keep complaining? When do we stop making excuses and realize that we lost the election and we showed bad style when we did. The “we're sorry” videos to the world, the “he's not my president” bumper stickers, etc. Bush is “hitlermcchumpwarcriminaldraftdodger” etc. At some point it has to get behind us…now that the democrats have the House, the Senate and the White House, isn't it time to act like grown ups and stop whining about it?


Hector
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 2:53 pm

the dude is not an expert. hes a yes man whos made his up the ranks by doing whatever his bosses have told him to and he has no idea what hes doing or why… thats why he cant answer the question


I gotta give credit where credit is due... - Offtopicz
Pingback posted September 25, 2009 @ 3:54 pm

[...] [...]


Ishkabbible
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 3:14 pm

Sorry Hector, but the founders were very anti-government-regulation. A more logical interpretation of this phrase uses the definition of “regulate”
3. to adjust so as to ensure accuracy of operation: to regulate a watch.
4. to put in good order: to regulate the digestion.
(Random House Dictionary)


Anonymous
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 8:35 pm

“The first law school in America, founded by Tapping Reeve (b. October 1744, in Southhold, Long Island, New York; d. December 13, 1823, in Litchfield, Connecticut) in 1784 in Litchfield, Connecticut. It continued operation until 1833.” http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Litchfield+Law+School

Now a museum. Nice place to visit.


msky
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 3:40 pm

I am all for getting a background check, references check, credit history check, cavity check, head check, past girlfriends check when it comes to buying guns. A normal, well adjusted person who contributes to his neighborhood and society in general does not need to get a gun. There is no reason to form a militia in Virgina or New Hampshire. No one is going to be attacking it anytime soon. If you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 31,000 firearms deaths last year, they had 112. Do you think it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature?


LiberalDoucheBaggins
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 3:44 pm

It doesnt matter how I feel about it. What you seem to forget is that AL GORE is the one who brought it to trial and the Supreme Court. Bush won at every step of the way….regular election, recount, and the courts. The difference here between Franken was that HE LOST, and then suddenly won in the recount after “missing ballots” were found in trunks of cars, and ALL of them in Franken's favor. Get an education you left wing loon.


LiberalDoucheBaggins
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 3:52 pm

Can you tell us where it says we cant?? Back in the days of our Founding Fathers, a rifle was a rifle….the same as in hunting as military. Whats wrong with doing that today?? Once again, Liberals fail in this argument. Guns dont kill peope, people kill people. They kill with guns, bombs, poison, cars, water, knives and yes, even samurai swords. If I want an AK47, Ill buy one. If I want a tank, Ill buy one….if I can afford it of course.


drklassen
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 3:58 pm

No. It was there so that the government would have a ready set of troops so that if (as in 1812) someone came knocking on our shores we'd have a fighting force. This “being able to fight *our* government” is hooey. One only needs to look to the Whiskey Rebellion to see our founder's feelings on that respect.


LiberalDoucheBaggins
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 4:02 pm

Who is more nuts….a homeowner who wants to protect themselves with guns, or a Liberal who wants no citizen to have a gun, except the criminals (since 99% of the time they use illegally obatined weapons)??

Its pretty obvious to me…the right to protect ourselves from not only criminals but tyranny makes it basic to me that you should own whatever gun you want.

What Liberals also refuse to acknowledge is that it doesnt matter if its an AK47 or a semi auto hunting rifle….the bullets are practically the same with the same death capabilities. Its just another rifle. Something anti-gun nuts seem to forget.


LiberalDoucheBaggins
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 4:04 pm

What he thought was sureal was that this idiot failed actor and radio host has the audacity to question him on security and police methods. He cant believe that some moron Liberal is questioning him on legality and Constitutionality….after its already been approved by the Supreme Court, Congress, and 2 Presidents.

Franken is a clown.


AnonyMouse
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 4:25 pm

Yawn


99doug
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 4:53 pm

…. republican scumbags who steal other nations oil

I might be inclined to discuss the above statement with you, had you gone on to the 10th grade.


ENDIF
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:01 pm

You have no idea what you're talking about:

- an AK 47 you can buy in the States is only semi-auto, not full auto. Just like any other rifle.

- Hollow point rounds are safer for bystanders, because they do not penetrate walls as easily.

- Grenade launchers are, in fact, illegal.

And your last sentence is pure nonsequitur.


ENDIF
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:04 pm

Oh, I'm sorry, which gun control laws would these be?
The one that removes the absurd restriction on carrying in state parks maybe?

And the primary reason for the 2nd amendment isn't the government, sparky, it's self defense.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to Big 5 to buy a Mosin Nagant..


ENDIF
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:04 pm

This liberal carrys concealed.

Next myth.


ENDIF
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:09 pm

“A normal, well adjusted person who contributes to his neighborhood and society in general does not need to get a gun.”

Oh, that's funny, because I do all of those things, am an extremely vocal liberal, campaigned for Obama from the caucuses on, and have a growing collection of guns … that I hope I never have to use on another human.

Moreover, I don't see you calling for cars to be banned, since they kill hundreds of times more people even here in the US, than all firearm deaths combined including casualties of the drug war.

You have no idea what you're talking about, and your 'statistics' came out of your ass, have no basis in reality.

Your ignorance and arrogance should not determine my ability to defend myself until police arrive.


Sabriel
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:09 pm

So you are saying that the 2nd amendment was put in place so that we can shoot our government officials if they “run a muck?” Wow, that's rather scary! So the only way to oppose a government is to organize a coup? I thought we were a democracy! So if you aren't happy with what our government is doing, the 2nd amendment gives you the right to form a well-regulated militia to defend yourself against your government by shooting at them? I'm just trying to follow your train of thought here. Did it ever occur to you the time and place this amendment was enacted, 1791. That was over 200 years ago which, I would conclude, was a completely different time period, ripe with war and fairly barbaric guns compared to those we have today. We are evolving beings, technologically and mentally. Just because our nation was given a right over 200 years ago, doesn't necessarily mean it is still applicable in today's time. Sometimes things need to be tweaked. And might I add, of all the amendments, this one is the most misunderstood.


ENDIF
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:10 pm

DURP DURP LIBRULZ R BAD DURP

*yawn*


ENDIF
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:11 pm

Except that this never actually happened.


ENDIF
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:17 pm

Agreeeeed, rightards put FAR too much emphasis on the ZOMG OVER THROW THE GUBMINT angle.. but we still have the right to defend ourselves until police arrive, etc.

Their fapping obsession does not negate the logic behind the amendment itself, or the fact that the supreme court has upheld the individual right.


dkap
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:44 pm

Wow… civility and rationality. I must have died and gone to heaven.


JLee
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:44 pm

AK-47s are semi-automatic rifles. Semi-automatic rifles have been on the market for more than 100 years. They are no more and no less dangerous than they ever were. The semi-auto version of the AK-47 is available for purchase by otherwise qualified buyers, just the same as the other (less military-looking, “regular”) semi-automatic rifles are. The fully automatic version of any rifle, AK-47 or otherwise, require that you buy a special permit from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, and the law has been that way for decades. BATFE is free to approve or deny the purchase. Semi-automatic weaponry, AK-47 and otherwise, are NOT, repeat NOT, assault weapons. No assault team uses semi-autos; instead they use fully automatic weapons. Look at the Reagan assassination attempt videos, in which you'll see Secret Service agents opening their jackets and producing Uzzis. Uzzis are fully automatic weapons – in other words, machine guns – which fire continuously when you hold down the trigger. So are MP5's, which is the weapon held in the face in 2000 of Elian Gonazales and his uncle by a government thug removing him for repatriation to Cuba. They may be capable of semi-automatic fire or 3-round full auto bursts, but they are machine guns. Semi-autos are NOT. Please stop telling me I am unreasonable because I want a semi-auto. They are perfectly legitimate weapons, as they have been for over 100 years, they work for hunting (ever tried to shoot a deer? They're kind of fast, you know), they most certainly are legitimate for militia use, and it's none of your DAMNED business if I own one or not. If you think it IS your business, then perhaps it is MY business whether your wife or daughter has an abortion (I don't really think it is, but if you insist on sticking your nose in my business, then maybe I'll return the favor). Keep the government out of our papers, personal effects, houses, and guns – that means you need to support BOTH the Fourth and Second (and the other) amendments equally. And read “The Federalist” so you can get a sense of the rationale behind arming the WHOLE populace. As long as you continue to say that this or that kind of weapon “has no legitimate sporting purpose,” expect to see that same logic thrown right back in your face with “partial birth abortion has no legitimate medical purpose.” As long as you argue for waiting periods for gun purchases for women being stalked by their former spouses regardless of the existence of a restraining order, then expect that same terminology to be used when arguing for waiting periods on abortions so the woman can be “counseled.” These issues are inseparable. Infringe on one right and you infringe on them all. The Tenth Amendment says we have more rights than just the ones enumerated in Amendments One through Nine. The Fourth, Second, and all the other amendments are interconnected, and the Constitution is expansive on the subject of the people's rights. If you insist on emasculating the Second, you'll find all the others going down the toilet, too . . . and that's exactly what we've seen in the era of gun control. Support all our rights to the hilt or you'll wind up with none.


LiberalDoucheBaggins
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:44 pm

Thats pretty ignorant on your part. If anything should be repealed, its the Federal Income Tax amendment…not the gun laws. Yes, thats exactly what our Founding Fathers envisioned….if our government runs amuck….then no, not organize a coup (which would just supplant our government with a worse one)…but do what our Founding Fathers did….start a revolution!! Read up on Jefferson…

“Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms (of government) those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny”

“Every generation needs a new revolution.”

“The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.”

One thing ALL our Founding Fathers were for is a SMALL government. Our government, under Obama, has grown an extra 25,000 jobs in the government….while unemployment is over 10%. Our government under Democrats ALWAYS increases in size.


Name
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:45 pm

LOL …… Awesome Reply 99doug


Anonymous
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 10:47 pm

fair enough. Although I still think that his comment was directed towards Franken’s sardonic presentation and his jesting that he knows what the third branch of government is, as if Kris were belittling him. Neither side was being ill-mannered or flippant (although Franken’s charm is his mild but poignant humor, and can sometimes obfuscate the issue).


LiberalDoucheBaggins
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:50 pm

Its not just about fighting our government…its about fighting tyranny. No one said fight our government whenever someone feels like it. It would take the majority of this country to make a revolution….not the 5% fringe lunatic left wingers. Conservatives dont want a revolution….we want to MAINTAIN our great country, and the values that MADE this country so great. We are fighting to PROTECT this country, unlike Liberals who hate this country and only want to change this country to suit their personal agenda.


LiberalDoucheBaggins
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:52 pm

What myth is that?? I said anti-gun nuts. What does your post about you carrying have anything to do with the overall Liberalism mantra??


LiberalDoucheBaggins
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 5:56 pm

Liar. If you were in Manhattan during 9/11…you would have missed multiple days of school. THEY CLOSED THEM DOWN. I was there during 9/11….they closed our office down for 2 days. Why do Libs lie?? Everything was closed in Manhattan….schools, stock market, most businesses, etc.


emissions
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 6:28 pm

If you read The Federalist Papers #29, it says,

“It requires no skill in the science of war to discern that uniformity in the organization and discipline of the militia would be attended with the most beneficial effects, whenever they were called into service for the public defense. It would enable them to discharge the duties of the camp and of the field with mutual intelligence and concert an advantage of peculiar moment in the operations of an army; and it would fit them much sooner to acquire the degree of proficiency in military functions which would be essential to their usefulness. THIS DESIRABLE UNIFORMITY CAN ONLY BE ACCOMPLISHED BY CONFIDING THE REGULATION OF THE MILITIA TO THE DIRECTION OF THE NATIONAL AUTHORITY. IT IS, THEREFORE, WITH THE MOST EVIDENT PROPRIETY, THAT THE PLAN OF THE CONVENTION PROPOSES TO EMPOWER THE UNION “TO PROVIDE FOR ORGANIZING, ARMING, AND DISCIPLINING THE MILITIA, AND FOR GOVERNING SUCH PART OF THEM AS MAY BE EMPLOYED IN THE SERVICE OF THE UNITED STATES, reserving to the states respectively the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia ACCORDING TO THE DISCIPLINE PRESCRIBED BY CONGRESS”


Anonymous
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 11:33 pm

Must have put my finger in the wrong hole .


Joe the Philosopher
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 7:30 pm

Let's just hope that when the Republicans threaten another terrorist attack, they don't make sure it happens.


Chris Weigant: Friday Talking Points [95] — A Call To Action - My First New Blog
Pingback posted September 25, 2009 @ 8:54 pm

[...] Washington Independent had an article this week which pointed out what a swell job Franken is doing in Paul Wellstone’s old seat. [...]


jmorris376
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 8:03 pm

http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.com/2009/0…


kap101
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 8:18 pm

What are you – blind? If you're not talking about Liberals, then stop referring to them by name over and over in your posts.


Chris Weigant: Friday Talking Points [95] — A Call To Action | Obama Biden White House
Pingback posted September 25, 2009 @ 9:41 pm

[...] Washington Independent had an article this week which pointed out what a swell job Franken is doing in Paul Wellstone’s old seat. [...]


Chris Weigant: Friday Talking Points [95] — A Call To Action | DoisPontoZero
Pingback posted September 25, 2009 @ 9:42 pm

[...] Washington Independent had an article this week which pointed out what a swell job Franken is doing in Paul Wellstone’s old seat. [...]


Chris Weigant: Friday Talking Points [95] — A Call To Action : My Mash Web
Pingback posted September 25, 2009 @ 11:08 pm

[...] Washington Independent had an article this week which pointed out what a swell job Franken is doing in Paul Wellstone’s old seat. [...]


ruggy
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 11:45 pm

Your confusion comes from your stance that the Constitution grants us rights. It does more than than, it also acknowledges and protects rights which are innate or preexisting. The language of the Second Amendment does the latter. It doesn't say we have the right to own XYZ type of firearm for ABC purpose; rather it says the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The Second Amendment doesn't grant rights to the people; rather, the Second Amendment acknowledges a basic right and rules out the ability of the government to infringe it.


ruggy
Comment posted September 25, 2009 @ 11:59 pm

If Americans were homicidal by nature, we'd have wiped ourselves out long ago. We have so many guns here, you would simply not believe it. I have 20+ guns, and my neighbor has more than I do. I enjoy shooting. Guns are like golf clubs to me.


ruggy
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 12:02 am

The Founding Fathers were revolutionaries who fought their own government – which was British.


DanMingo
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 1:15 am

That 'clown' schooled that Justice dept. stooge.


Dean
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 9:00 am

Fox wacko Glen Beck is going to crap his pants when he learns that the conservatives enacted US Patriot Act in in violation of the Constitution …… let the tears flow


Dean
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 9:04 am

I was wondering if the intended use of your semi-auto was for hunting purposes, or to perhaps kil a few more cops in Pittsburgh, or perhaps murder another doctor in front of his family at his place of worship??? ………just wondering


DBG
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 9:11 am

actually, these days in the era of right wingnut-ism, a lot of people with guns kill people. I had a conversation with a local cop recently on the issue of illegal handguns and what he said was that 85% of the guns confiscated or recovered in crimes up our way were actually stolen from homes fin SOUTHERN STATES. ………..so yeah, guns don't kill people …….. people with guns kill people


dbg
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 9:15 am

and the government of the Bush reactionary era didn't grow in size??


dbg
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 9:32 am

LOL ….. get over yourself man. Your rants go beyond conservatism, they are actually reactionary. While you “maintain” your view of “great country” this so called conservatism ideology is crumbling all around you as the rest of the world evolves past us. What you want to “maintain” are failed foreign and domestic policies that brought America to it's knees. Sniff, sniff …… I feel a Glenn Beck moment coming on ……. and further, this claim that “liberals hate this country” is just more hubristic nonsense because you can't admit that what we might be actually protecting ourselves from are wing nut clones who listen to reactionary talk radio, Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, and the Fox Propaganda Network.

When was the last time you actually had a novel thought?


DBG
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 9:41 am

The problem is …… when guns are stolen from you and your neighbor, they end up being used in robberies and murders elsewhere. As I posted earlier, police tell us that 85% of the guns confiscated or seized up our way are stolen from homes in southern states. Also, please remember to yell “fore!” before you pull the trigger …… thanks.


dbg
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 9:50 am

WHEN??? …………are you going to get rid of that DUMB reactionary wing nut Michelle Bachmann?? Is there something in the water in her district?? …I envision her on a ticket with Sarah Palin in 2012 …..


DBG
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 10:00 am

The Federalist Papers were really a public discourse in support of ratifying the Constitution ……. so if Glenn Beck were alive in the 1780s when these treatises were published in various newspapers in eastern cities, he'd be considered a village idiot


DBG
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 10:05 am

LOL …… I'm guilty ,,,,,, where do I turn myself in??


ruggy
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 10:07 am

Hello.

I personally have eight semi-auto rifles and five semi-auto pistols. None of these are ever used for hunting. I have hunted but never really got into it. Instead I shoot paper targets at the range and the occasional soda can when I'm out in the country. Maybe you think that sounds dull, but it really can be a lot of fun; and I'm a pretty excellent shot. People say I'm a natural, and a “dead eye.” Perhaps it's not your thing, but it is one of many hobbies I have, and I enjoy it.

It is a personal pleasure to maintain and improve my skills. I also appreciate the technical aspects of firearm design and learning more about them. It's fun to occasionally take them apart, clean them, study their function and reassemble them. Even as a child I was taking apart & reassembling everything I could get my curious hands on. (Clocks, radios, electric motors, etc.) I know people who enjoy working on cars or motorbikes and boats. I enjoy working on guns and computers and musical instruments. That's just who I am.

Yes I have a definite gun hobby. I suppose you could call me a firearms enthusiast. I definitely know how to use guns, and you are actually better off because of it. If for example; if you and someone like me were coincidentally strangers in the same convenience store when some crack addict bursts in with a stolen police weapon and starts shooting everyone, there actually is a small chance that your life might be saved by the intervention of a “good guy” like myself who just happened to be exercising his right to carry concealed. Something like this happens every month in our country.


DBG
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 10:08 am

and I must admit that the FBI and other law enforcement agencies have done a phenomenal job with these terrorist suspect arrests lately ….. I just hope that these guys are guilty of a crime and nut just having Arabic surnames ….


ruggy
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 10:09 am

IMNSHBCO, you're mistaken.


ruggy
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 10:11 am

Anyone who wants to steal my guns had better bring a cutting torch with plenty of gas, and know how to evade multiple motion detectors.


DBG
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 10:11 am

no kidding …… I can just hear Dick Cheney and the wing nuts like Hannity saying “I told you so.”


DBG
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 10:23 am

Hey, I like bird hunting a few times a year. But I use a firearm designed for the sport. As far as the crack addict scenario is concerned, you do realize that crime rates have dropped for what, the last 20 years or so?

I'm more concerned about your arsenal being stolen and when one of your fellow “firearms enthusiasts” comes to a vigilante style rescue not only shoots the perp, but as the bullet exits the assailant it goes through three other people including me and my daughter as well as through three other buildings and finally resting in the brain of a cow down the road. These ideations of “coming to the rescue” type heroism are the result of watching “Dirty Harry” and old Charles Bronson movies a few too many times. Grow up man …..


DBG
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 10:29 am

good point that is far too often forgotten, misinterpreted, and certainly used for misinformation purposes …….. it was more a way of defending a fledgling nation from foreign threats …………..not the freaking government, or government tyranny or any of the other Glenn Beck uneducated stupidity


ruggy
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 10:40 am

When I carry, the loads are prefragmented hollowpoints which are engineered not to overpenetrate.

The bullet behavior you describe sounds more like what a high powered rifle could produce with the correct ammo. Not something conveniently carried around.

And just so you know, hurting another human being is the absolute last thing I'd ever want to do in my life. But I've been trained, and sometimes it comes down to choosing the lesser of two evils.

I've fired tens of thousands of rounds in my day, and every single shot was carefully aimed. Not a single one of them has ever gone someplace I didn't expect.

If my mention of real-life scenario's makes you think of Dirty Harry, then you need to turn off the TV and start reading.


dbg
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 10:57 am

Interesting how you can somehow connect two disparate issues, gun control and abortion, together. As mentioned in other posts, the Federalist Papers were a public discourse in support of ratifying the Constitution over two hundred years ago. And, just because you and Glenn Beck see yourselves as Federalist scholars doesn't make it so.

You may recall from your in depth scholarly erudition that America was a fledgling Republic in the 1780s. And as such, there was concern about foreign threats to a nation that was barely able to defend itself. I don't suppose that it occurred you that “the right to bear arms” had more to do with foreign threats to a fledgling nation than this exaggerated and misinterpreted idea that is this so-called “right” is for protection from government tyranny? ……. When I read these diatribes about gun rights I get the idea that too many americans are getting misinformed by an educational process involving John Hagee, John Birch, talk radio, fox news ….. it's now wonder we have to outsource scientists and engineers now


dbg
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 11:01 am

Unless you're a trained law enforcement professional, I'll take my chances. Again, crime statistics of the last 20 years do not support your assertions that the public at large needs to be “packing”


janhalcion
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 11:55 am

AK-47's are fully automatic. You sir, are a long winded moron.


nosreg
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 12:13 pm

The Patriots of the American Revolution would never agree to anything in the “Patriot Act”


Anonymous
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 8:27 pm

“Wingnut conspiracy *hypotheses*”; a theory is a very well-supported explanation—like gravity and evolution. :)


Anonymous
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 8:49 pm

Add Wachenhut to the list of “private” military that screwed up.


Rex
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 6:08 pm

You guys are both right. The 2nd amendment was designed to protect the rights of individuals against threats foreign and domestic; tyrannical government and invaders.

It's sad to see so much bickering and division. All our interests are the same.

Why don't we stop worrying about what divides us and instead focus on the things we all need; peace and love?


frankienumbers
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 6:53 pm

“Kris looked flustered and mumbled that 'this is surreal,' apparently referring to having to respond to Franken’s question.”
If I take his comment correctly: Senators are supposed to sit down, shut up, and avoid asking tough questions. Especially when the senator in question is, in fact, a career commedian (since we all know if you get paid for one profession, there's no way you can take on another. I immediately think of the disaterous singing career of actress Jennifer Lopez).
Besides, the Constitution is a LIVING DOCUMENT. That means our definition of Liberty is flexible. Tomorrow we might decide that “liberty” is defined as all women wearing a burqa. It should be noted that the 2nd amendment is NOT part of the living document: it is an unchangeable fact that all people should have access to all guns, all the time. Except crazy people. And homos. And coloreds. But white people, who don't do drugs I guess. Illegal drugs.
You get the idea.


Dan
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 8:01 pm

Umm Dean.. if you ever watched glenn beck for once you'd know he's not a fan of the Patriot Act and certainly not a fan of Bush either. Beck sticks with the facts.. Maybe you should start using Google and you tube more often.


dbg
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 8:22 pm

I do remember from the study of the Constitution in high school the “elastic clause” (aka the Necessary and Proper Clause) and being told that the signers were visionaries who understood that the Constitution, the country, and the world were going to change in the future.

What baffles me is that the political reactionaries such as limbaugh and beck posing as Constitutional scholars, both college dropouts, either conveniently ignore the “elastic clause” or are ignorant of it.

The Bill of Rights was ratified in 1791 when we were still loading muskets. Cartridge loads didn't appear in the military until when?? Revolvers didn't appear until when? Rifling was invented when we were still shooting lead balls out of guns. Lincoln was murdered with a single shot Derringer for eff sake. Times change, technology advances are inevitable.

The amendments to the constitution are not immutable. Accordingly, there have been 27 amendments thus far with voting age changed to 18 in the 26th, and most notably the 21st repealing the 18th. So, these “unchangeable facts” are facts only in relation to rationalizing gun ownership. I see gun extremists who bring there kids to gun shows where they can kill themselves by losing control of an Uzi the same as I do religious extremists wanting creationism taught in schools and terrorizing the public by bombing women's clinics and murdering doctors ………….. putting their fingers in their ears and yelling ” la la la la la la ……… I can't hear you, I can't hear you ……” It's like watching a child having a temper tantrum at Walmart because he was told he can't have a bag of Skittles ………

as far as gay bashing and other related homophobia is concerned, if I hated gay people that much, I'd keep that hatred it to myself so that I'm not associated with the worst elements in our society who have so much hatred for other people supposedly living in freedom that they tie them to the bumpers of their pickup trucks and drag them around the state of Texas or Wyoming for awhile, only to leave them tied to a fence until they are dead ……. so don't lecture about “liberty” being “flexible” in one breath only to reveal your homophobia in the next ……… get over it man


DBG
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 8:50 pm

“Beck sticks with the facts.”

Thanks for the chuckle.

Beck has been called out and otherwise ridiculed so many times that he should be embarrassed. Common sense was a joke. ……….. I suggest that you take some your own advice, or better yet, get an education. Beck, as well as other reactionary wannabe politicos, supported Bush right up until the country fell off of his flat earth. It's easy to sit on the fence waiting to see which way the winds of change will blow, only to say “I told you so” when your policies fail. You, as well, should be embarrassed, but you are not …….. If anything was learned this decade, conservatism is a failed ideology, right up there along with communism ……

Consider Father Charles Coughlin of the 1930s, McCarthy of the 1950s, Wallace of the 1970s, and other reactionary politicos since then who try and ultimately fail when testing the intelligence of a politically centrist nation. Americans, unless confused and dazed by a 9/11 type of event, reject political extremism. Beck, your limbaugh lunatic, most of talk radio, and certainly ALL of Fox are extreme, and will end up the same as Coughlin and McCarthy………ridiculed and rejected because an informed and educated electorate will ultimately prevail


frankienumbers
Comment posted September 26, 2009 @ 9:45 pm

Seriously, I know they didn't forsee hunting with assault rifles. But can you imagine Jefferson approving of the so-called “patriot act”? Really? With a straight face?


joezen777
Comment posted September 27, 2009 @ 3:30 am

You totally miss this very rational gun hobbyist's point. You're also mistaken if you think that there's some crime epidemic of large gun collector caches being stolen and then given to gangs on the street. First most gun enthusiasts I know live in a rural setting. Think about all the stuff you do for fun and then try it in a town of a couple thousand. Secondly gangs get their weapons from crooked arms dealers. Because it's legal to make automatic rifles in the US, dealers don't have to smuggle them. Just know the right person and make the sell. And guns aren't like cars, they last much longer. So restricting new gun sales would have little effect on the current guns trading in the illegal markets.


joezen777
Comment posted September 27, 2009 @ 3:43 am

How many deaths did they have from other violent crimes? The great thing about living in a country where no one carries guns is that you get held up with a screwdriver by a crazy immigrant that wants your watch. Personal experience. People aren't any less homicidal there which means violent deaths just find another way of happening. Though I'm a strong believer that universal health care and quality vocational education play a large role in mitigating violence from gangs in poverty stricken neighborhoods. If you want to catch the terrorist, shoot the hostage and burn their recruiting posters.


ruggy
Comment posted September 27, 2009 @ 6:11 am

Joezen777 that's exactly right. According to BATF agent Jay Wachtel , “Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes.”

PBS Frontline: How Criminals Get Guns

Transcript available here:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/g…


ruggy
Comment posted September 27, 2009 @ 6:20 am

Some police may actually be saying that, but they are completely mistaken. Only 10-15% of guns used in crimes are stolen, according to the BATFE.

Most crime guns are obtained through “straw man” purchases or corrupt dealers. More info at this link…

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/g…


joezen777
Comment posted September 27, 2009 @ 6:51 am

Thanks for the article ruggy. It reminds me of when I ran into a childhood friend of mine once out of the blue in Dallas. I had to stop for a leak in a sporting goods store on the way to a cousin's wedding. Out of the blue here's this old friend- whom I know is on probation. He's with one of his old buddies and he's like “I think I'm going to buy a gun.” I didn't get it then but the article explains it now.


sfcanyon
Comment posted September 27, 2009 @ 7:03 am

Obviously people from Minnesota need their heads examined with a proctoscope. Everyone needs to think about this…

Most normal people cringe when a politician tries to tell a joke. It doesn’t come natural to them, it’s not what they are trained to do and chances are that the only people laughing are the ones whose jobs depend on it.

The same has to be said about comedians who decide to start talking about politics.

Al Franken was good on Saturday Night Live. I happily remember the Franken decade in the 1980’s. As a rule he made people laugh and he wrote some of the best sketches the show has ever had.

OK, he is a liberal. Not my cup of coffee, but I can handle that. Unfortunately, somewhere along the way, something sinister happened.

Now he is bitter – not a little but a lot. Franken has now added his name to the countless others who occupy the liberal hate machine. Franken was a comedian and should have stuck to what he is good at.

Al Franken is a victim. He has been unwittingly duped into believing that he is profound. He is the Johnny Huang of the left.

It started with his success as a comedian. He was pretty funny as the SNL one man satellite hook up guy and did a pretty good job in Trading Places. Once the success went to his head, he started to believe his own press. Others, with an agenda seized on this.

His latest project, a liberal talk radio station is likely to be yet another enormous failure just like his show on Air America and no doubt he and his friends will find some sinister right wing plot to blame for it. Lord knows it won’t be his fault. Why?

Because to admit he is responsible is to open the floodgates of realization that everything he has ever believed in is a reeking crock of bullshit. His ego won’t allow it, his pointy little head will explode first. This is the unfortunate fate of most liberals in America.

His books are little more than a series of rants and personal vendettas against successful media personalities and politicians with whom Franken has disagreements. I don’t agree with some of the decisions on American Idol, but am I driven to write a book entitled “Simon Callow is a Self Centred, Egotistical Prick!”? Not so much.

Franken is flat. Not funny or original but more like a child that can’t get his way. His infantile comments remind me of the grade school kid that picked up all his marbles and ran home to momma or held his breath until he turned blue.

I have no doubt at this point that, somewhere, someone is busy as a bee writing a new book tenativly titled, “Al Franken Couldn’t Get Laid in a Hong Kong Whorehouse with a Fistfull of Fifties if His Life Depended on it”.

What a dumbass!


Roundup – Dogs Riding Bikes « The Heat Death Hour
Pingback posted September 27, 2009 @ 1:37 pm

[...] Al Franken Reads 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official [The Washington Independent] [...]


Name
Comment posted September 27, 2009 @ 12:42 pm

Touched a nerve there, Mr Tourette? You accuse Senator Franken's books as “little more than a series of rants and personal vendettas against successful media personalities and politicians with whom Franken has disagreements” but could easily be used to describe the body of your post (without any insight, humor, or coherence). I can only hope you produce higher-quality work during your day job at McDonald's.


Tinto
Comment posted September 27, 2009 @ 1:23 pm

True conservatives understand that ad hominum attacks are fallacious. Al Franken's objection to these invasive procedures by law enforcement is sound. More empathy and less fallacy will make you a better human being.


dbg
Comment posted September 27, 2009 @ 5:43 pm

Absolutely NO way that Jefferson would have approved of probably the majority of the invasive policies of the Patriot Act …… however, considering the technology of the late 18th/early 19th century they never could have envisioned the destructive power created by mankind emanating from post 1930 physicists either.


dbg
Comment posted September 27, 2009 @ 7:46 pm

well, what was Rush Limbaugh before he made the scene in the mid-1985s. The answer is of course, nothing. He managed to attend one semester of college before dropping out to become a disk jockey. I remember listening to him on the radio on my commute home prior to syndication. Amusing, but not too bright or inspiring. but either way he found his niche and became a success. Considering the years of preaching and promulgation what is largely misinformation and the hundreds of millions of dollars earned via Clear Channel and other sources,……. Limbaugh has never thrown his hat into the ring of politics, disappointing both his loyal followers and critics. I personally think that Limbaugh realizes that he's full of shit and that he could never sustain a very public campaign where he would be subjected to vetting by the American and international press.

So, criticize Franken if you must, but Limbaugh the “big fat stupid idiot” has never put his fortune where his mouth i, in part, because of a lack of formal education and, for the most part, a record of over 20 years of manifest irrational moronic stupidity that has been documented by the media.


savagemike
Comment posted September 27, 2009 @ 10:02 pm

The Patriot Act needs to go the way of the dodo.


savagemike
Comment posted September 27, 2009 @ 10:04 pm

So because Al Franken made a clear, concise argument in defense of the 4th Amendment he's a dumbass?
I think it's clear after reading your comment who the real dumbass is.


AMG
Comment posted September 27, 2009 @ 11:46 pm

“Trained law enforcement professional”?? It's commonly known by those who qualify law enforcement professionals that they are commonly *bad* shots. I shoot at a range that is frequented by many local LEOs, and I out shoot them all. I'm a woman in my mid 30s who has only been shooting for 2 years. The last person I would be comfortable with handling a firearm is a cop.


dbg
Comment posted September 27, 2009 @ 11:52 pm

Ridiculous …… you have no law enforcement training …… end of story.


dbg
Comment posted September 28, 2009 @ 12:01 am

“Secondly gangs get their weapons from crooked arms dealers. “

that's really funny …… over the summer I ran into another gun nut in another blog who claimed that most guns used in crimes are stolen.. What I do know is that local police (state and local) have told me that the guns confiscated or seized in local homes come from southern states with 85% stolen from and traced back to southern homes …… now who has more credibility? the local state police? …. or two gun toting nuts from the home state of John Hagee and Benny Hinn??


dbg
Comment posted September 28, 2009 @ 12:17 am

But actually I believe that Justice Brandeis would have seen the patriot act as a violation of the 5th amendment ……….See Olmstead v United States


ruggy
Comment posted September 28, 2009 @ 1:48 am

DBG, consider reviewing the PBS Frontline article I linked to (twice) then comment. Otherwise you simply embarrass yourself.


joezen777
Comment posted September 28, 2009 @ 1:49 am

I bet your comment made me laugh more ;) Thanks for the pick me up. A conversation in inner city Chicago: “Leeroy, git back here this instance, whar you goin?!” “I'm gonna drive down to Alabama and steal me sum guns, ma. I got me some gang killin to do.” I imagine there must be a secret ebay for southern crooks wanting to sell their guns to the north. Or do you think they import their thieves to cut out the middle man?

I just don't see the logistics there, considering that the South makes up only 35% of the population. Which would you choose? An existing network of licensed at home gun dealers in your own state or mail order from the South? Even if you're suggesting that Southerners own six times the amount of guns as the rest of the country, you'd still have to find evidence that shows a huge number of gun theft crimes just in Southern states and that there exists some elaborate distribution system for all these redneck stolen hordes.


ruggy
Comment posted September 28, 2009 @ 3:15 am

AMG, I can echo your comment. Most LEO's I've seen at the range have been very poor shots. It doesn't take very much to qualify. I suspect I could do it weak-handed.

Another consideration is that in many circumstances, including the convenience store gunman scenario I described, LEO's are obligated to shoot. And I really don't like that word “obligated” especially knowing what I do about a policeman's typical marksmanship.

As a civilian, I am under no obligation to use my gun – ever. I have not, nor would I, draw it in public unless I were absolutely convinced that doing so would improve a situation that is already deathly bad… and in that case I've hopefully already contacted dispatch on my cell phone, creating a permanent audio record of everything that goes on.

If however the robber is pointing the gun at the cashier but hasn't fired it, and I personally think the robber only wants the cash drawer and won't actually hurt anybody, I don't see myself getting involved beyond taking cover, calling 911 and giving a statement. By contrast, the cops around here are trained to give one warning only, then shoot.

One obvious question is, what if the cop can't make a good first shot? Dispatch didn't send the marksman, they sent multiple units from whoever is available. Even if he/she shoots fine at close range, nonetheless a non-shooting situation has become a shooting situation; bullets are now flying and the robber himself may return fire – and he is going to be an extremely reckless shot. Just because the robber has been shot multiple times doesn't mean he is dead, nor even stopped!

For reasons like this I am very content that I myself am not a cop. I will not be finding myself in such a situation unless it is completely by accident. But life is pretty weird, and it could happen to anyone. I hope that I am as well-equipped as I can reasonably be, including mentally.

In my state there are specific conditions which if satisfied, automatically grant legal protection to the civilian who does shoot. The law is fully behind a responsible, armed citizenry.


ruggy
Comment posted September 28, 2009 @ 3:49 am

I've seen dozens of AK-47's but never one with full-auto.


mistakesgirlsmake
Comment posted September 28, 2009 @ 4:45 am

S*** happens. Americans need to stop living in fear and stop assuming that giving up all your personal freedoms will somehow make it go away.


sfcanyon
Comment posted September 28, 2009 @ 1:55 pm

Clear and concise, that's rich…No, because the way he made his point was egotistical and condescending he is a dumbass. I don't happen to agree with the patriot act either, but David Kris didn't write it, and if the present administration was in any hurry to give up these draconian powers any more than the last one was after they requested them, then Mr. Holder wouldn't have taken time out of his busy day screwing CIA agents ton send Mr. Kris over to congress to speak up in favor of renewing the Patriot act….Ooooppppsss Go have a Kool-Aid and a smile and go play with your propeller quietly in the corner.


dbg
Comment posted September 28, 2009 @ 5:07 pm

HORSE SHIT


dbg
Comment posted September 28, 2009 @ 5:34 pm

QUOTE:

“I personally have eight semi-auto rifles and five semi-auto pistols. None of these are ever used for hunting.”

WTF …… now I'm not saying that there aren't a few crazy yankees with arsenals …… but WTF does a human being with two hands do with 13 semi-automatic weapons???


ruggy
Comment posted September 28, 2009 @ 5:38 pm

DBG if it's not crystal clear to you by now, then it's clear to me that you haven't been reading many of these posts, and I'm disinclined to respond to you further.


joezen777
Comment posted September 28, 2009 @ 6:23 pm

I have eight dildos, twelve c-rings, six vibrators, and 2 blow up dolls (bachelor party) Everyone has a hobby. Some require extensive safety precautions and others require antibiotics.


fuckthefuckoff
Comment posted September 28, 2009 @ 7:59 pm

When was the last time you were at a gun show? Judging by the comment you made i'd guess its been a long time, possibly never. Most vendors at gun shows have removed the actions (ya know, the part that makes the gun go BANGBANG PEUWW PEUWW) from the guns that they have on display, and if not they have safety trigger locks on them and keep them unloaded.


Scholars and Rogues » Beer votes and rock quotes: Nota Bene for 28 September 2009
Pingback posted September 29, 2009 @ 7:08 am

[...] really left … Oink, eh … Sen. Al Franken is already pissing people off, which is a good thing … President Obama, British PM Brown and I have something in common … What 6′ [...]


Beer votes and rock quotes: Nota Bene for 28 September 2009 |
Pingback posted September 29, 2009 @ 10:33 am

[...] really left … Oink, eh … Sen. Al Franken is already pissing people off, which is a good thing … President Obama, British PM Brown and I have something in common … What 6′ [...]


TJeff
Comment posted September 29, 2009 @ 7:39 pm

Can you please tell me where in the 2nd amendment does it say the right to buy AK-47, hollow point bullets and a grenade launcher

Can you tell me where in the first amendment it says the right to blather on a mass communication device over an electronic medium that can be read by people all over the world in seconds, cause you ARE confused.

As for other's assertions that only police should carry lethal force capability, I know that the average police response time in Boston is much longer than it takes for an outlaw to shoot someone who is unarmed.


perfectarc
Comment posted September 29, 2009 @ 10:29 pm

OK …


perfectarc
Comment posted September 29, 2009 @ 10:33 pm

LOL ……


That’s My Congress » What Will Al Franken Do About Surveillance in America?
Pingback posted September 30, 2009 @ 9:14 am

[...] finally showed some indication of his general position regarding warrantless surveillance, when he pointedly asked a flummoxed Justice Department official how the 4th Amendment could possibly be squa… with the [...]


Victor Claude Pirtle
Comment posted September 30, 2009 @ 12:09 pm

If Americans wish to live in a fascist state, they are going about it in the right way, by allowing American fascists to make “laws” that will govern the American masses without even a by your leave from the American masses to the fascist “law makers”.


Kata Svoboda
Comment posted October 1, 2009 @ 1:41 am

Ronald Reagan was an actor, Sonny Bono a singer/performer, but then they moved to politics. These are ELECTED officials. Making a contention as to whether or not they are qualified for the job is moot once they are elected. Does that make sense?
So Franken was a comedian, now he is a Senator. So, like it or hate it… the people voted him into office.
He has made some very good points and has done so simply by reading aloud the 4th Amenment.
Instead of starting a new, completely tangential argument as to his qualifications, why not answer the question he poses? It may very well seem surreal, but that's not the point.

' “That’s pretty explicit language,” noted Franken, asking Kris how the “roving wiretap” provision of the Patriot Act can meet that requirement if it doesn’t require the government to name its target.''

How about, “Hey, you raise a valid point. We should study this further…..”
But would that ever … ever be possible between politicians? One can only hope.


Stumblers.net › Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official
Pingback posted October 1, 2009 @ 3:54 am

[...] The Washington Independent » Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official. Share and [...]


Al Franken reads the 4th Amendment to David Kris
Pingback posted October 1, 2009 @ 3:21 pm

[...] before Congress, urging lawmakers to reauthorize the Patriot Act, when Al Franken read the 4th Amendment to him. Noting that he received a copy of the Constitution when he was sworn in as a senator, he [...]


Anonymous
Comment posted October 2, 2009 @ 7:57 pm

Hollowpoints are designed to kill what they hit. The extra energy that they need to expend so they don’t punch out has to go into the target and the mushroom shape tears up tissue more than a clean bullet.

The idea of just anyone toting something which is designed to kill even better than a regular gun and saying it’s a positive thing because it means that bystanders (a word meaning “someone who isn’t being shot at”) are safer is dodging the point.


Anonymous
Comment posted October 2, 2009 @ 7:57 pm

Hollowpoints are designed to kill what they hit. The extra energy that they need to expend so they don’t punch out has to go into the target and the mushroom shape tears up tissue more than a clean bullet.

The idea of just anyone toting something which is designed to kill even better than a regular gun and saying it’s a positive thing because it means that bystanders (a word meaning “someone who isn’t being shot at”) are safer is dodging the point.


Anonymous
Comment posted October 2, 2009 @ 8:32 pm

Well, obviously not everything. You can’t force that good looking lady politician to do that no matter how many taxes you pay.


Anonymous
Comment posted October 2, 2009 @ 8:32 pm

Well, obviously not everything. You can’t force that good looking lady politician to do that no matter how many taxes you pay.


Anonymous
Comment posted October 2, 2009 @ 8:33 pm

Oddly enough it doesn’t matter how much you say if what you say is on topic and relevant. It also helps that the Constitution has ultimate force of law in the US.


Anonymous
Comment posted October 2, 2009 @ 8:33 pm

Oddly enough it doesn’t matter how much you say if what you say is on topic and relevant. It also helps that the Constitution has ultimate force of law in the US.


tonyjustin
Comment posted October 2, 2009 @ 5:36 pm

I disagree with all of your points. Al Franken did not start out by being a comedian, he started out by growing up in Minnesota and then attending Harvard University. Senator Franken asked a valid question by reading the fourth amendment to the US constitution. I think that there is no question that the Patriot Act is unconstitutional because of its failure to meet the legal requirements of the fourth amendment. I know that most conservatives would gladly toss out the first, fourth and fifth amendments, but there it is, and Americans have to live with it.


stephen1984
Comment posted October 2, 2009 @ 7:33 pm

Where do gun shows come into it? I don't think the rest of the thread is talking about gun shows.


stephen1984
Comment posted October 2, 2009 @ 7:34 pm

Yup, Google and Youtube are going to educate us perfectly with absolutely no mistakes or deception being made or done by anyone.


stephen1984
Comment posted October 2, 2009 @ 7:35 pm

I've never been to India, although that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


stephen1984
Comment posted October 2, 2009 @ 7:52 pm

I don't really mind if my policeman is not a crack shot. We're not asking them to take the apple off someone's head, we're asking them to enforce the law.

If I wanted someone to shoot a target then I would definitely consider ruggy or AMG but, with respect, there's more to being a cop than shooting at things.


stephen1984
Comment posted October 2, 2009 @ 7:53 pm

I'm nervous about your use of the word “dispatch”. I'd personally say “call the police” or “call the authorities”. I consider “calling dispatch” to be mall ninja language.


ruggy
Comment posted October 2, 2009 @ 8:00 pm

Ok course they exist, in great abundance, everywhere except the USA. Is this thread about the USA or not?


ruggy
Comment posted October 2, 2009 @ 8:02 pm

I'll have to take your word for that.


ruggy
Comment posted October 2, 2009 @ 8:05 pm

There definitely is. No question about it.


ruggy
Comment posted October 3, 2009 @ 3:41 am

Dodging the point? Not if the writer’s imagined point was one of fantastic overpenetration causing ridiculous collateral damage in an unreal world. In reality, typical pistols, especially pistols with hollowpoints, simply cannot do what DBG described.

But what you’re saying raises an interesting point of law. Unless one is shooting at wild game, the point is not to kill, though that may easily happen. The point is, to stop the attacker.

Highly frangible “personal defense rounds” are also available which also reduce the chance of ricochets; but I would not carry them because they are too controversial. I believe they are safer, but they are also more lethal; and unfortunately I am also interested in protecting myself legally. The point is not specifically to kill the target – the point is to “stop” them from doing what they’re doing that was threatening your safety. I can legally try to “stop” an attacker, and I can do so with force that happens to be quite lethal. But I cannot actually try to kill the attacker, as that would be potentially prosecutable as a homicide. See the fine line there? It’s actually a very important line. If the attacker has been stopped, or is retreating, I cannot legally shoot. Frangible rounds are likely safer, but since they are also deadlier that leaves it up to a grand jury to decide what your actual intent was. My training was to not deviate much, if at all, from what the local police carry for ammo for this very reason. Unfortunate but true.

I’m unsure what you meant by “regular gun” but I assume you meant a revolver. The type of gun has nothing to do with the ammunition being hollowpoints or not. Virtually all police carry hollowpoints regardless of their service gun.

Know that semi autos, especially Glocks, are extremely popular with police departments. They’re good guns… reliable, high capacity, easy to shoot and require very little maintenance or cleaning.

The rules for shooting are different for police. Police are trained to shoot, in certain circumstances even when the target is running away.


ruggy
Comment posted October 3, 2009 @ 3:41 am

Dodging the point? Not if the writer’s imagined point was one of fantastic overpenetration causing ridiculous collateral damage in an unreal world. In reality, typical pistols, especially pistols with hollowpoints, simply cannot do what DBG described.

But what you’re saying raises an interesting point of law. Unless one is shooting at wild game, the point is not to kill, though that may easily happen. The point is, to stop the attacker.

Highly frangible “personal defense rounds” are also available which also reduce the chance of ricochets; but I would not carry them because they are too controversial. I believe they are safer, but they are also more lethal; and unfortunately I am also interested in protecting myself legally. The point is not specifically to kill the target – the point is to “stop” them from doing what they’re doing that was threatening your safety. I can legally try to “stop” an attacker, and I can do so with force that happens to be quite lethal. But I cannot actually try to kill the attacker, as that would be potentially prosecutable as a homicide. See the fine line there? It’s actually a very important line. If the attacker has been stopped, or is retreating, I cannot legally shoot. Frangible rounds are likely safer, but since they are also deadlier that leaves it up to a grand jury to decide what your actual intent was. My training was to not deviate much, if at all, from what the local police carry for ammo for this very reason. Unfortunate but true.

I’m unsure what you meant by “regular gun” but I assume you meant a revolver. The type of gun has nothing to do with the ammunition being hollowpoints or not. Virtually all police carry hollowpoints regardless of their service gun.

Know that semi autos, especially Glocks, are extremely popular with police departments. They’re good guns… reliable, high capacity, easy to shoot and require very little maintenance or cleaning.

The rules for shooting are different for police. Police are trained to shoot, in certain circumstances even when the target is running away.


Anonymous
Comment posted October 3, 2009 @ 6:38 am

You win one internet!!


Anonymous
Comment posted October 3, 2009 @ 6:38 am

You win one internet!!


Anonymous
Comment posted October 3, 2009 @ 6:43 am

“Hollowpoints are designed to kill what they hit.”

Goddamn right they are. Never point your gun at anything you don’t intend to destroy. If I’m pointing my gun at someone, it’s because they’re provably threatening bodily harm or death to me or my family. In that situation, you shoot til the threat ends. Fastest way to end the threat is to use the minimum number of shots to kill the assailant. Problem solved.

In any other situation, without provable threat, I am guilty of at least brandishing, on up to murder.

Moreover, because a hollowpoint behaves as you have described, it will not:
- over penetrate the target and hit anything behind it
- penetrate walls and hit anything behind it
- ricochet with singificant mass and velocity in case of a miss

Thereby making it the perfect round for a self defense weapon.

So precisely what is the problem?


Anonymous
Comment posted October 3, 2009 @ 6:56 am

Not ‘liberals’.

We’re not all anti gun morons, despite what the NRA and the rest of the spin factory on the right claims.


Anonymous
Comment posted October 3, 2009 @ 6:56 am

Not ‘liberals’.

We’re not all anti gun morons, despite what the NRA and the rest of the spin factory on the right claims.


ENDIF
Comment posted October 3, 2009 @ 2:09 am

More the point, what ***damn business is it of yours?

None.


ENDIF
Comment posted October 3, 2009 @ 2:15 am

Suuure, but the modern need most individuals will EVER have to deal with in their lifetimes is self defense. Arguing the ZOMG OVERTHROW TEH GUBMINT angle just makes you look like a nutburger, and damages the cause of 2nd amendment rights.


ENDIF
Comment posted October 3, 2009 @ 2:18 am

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Only class III license holders (insanely hard to get) can own automatic rifles.
I could go HERE
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/
and buy an AK47 right now and have it shipped to a local gun store for pick up because IT'S SEMI AUTOMATIC.

Moron.


ENDIF
Comment posted October 3, 2009 @ 2:22 am

What kind of halfassed two bit strawman is that?
Of course they exist.

The point is next to no one can legally own them in the US, and those that can have to pay a LOT of money to get them.

Everyone else that has one in the US has a semi-auto.
One pull of the trigger, one bang.


Sly Flourish» Blog Archive » Tips for Running Paragon | Running Leisure Knowledge
Pingback posted October 3, 2009 @ 5:27 am

[...] The Washington Independent » Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to … [...]


BmoreKarl
Comment posted October 4, 2009 @ 5:16 pm

Rachel Maddow is a hack. She belongs in the same rubber room with Limbaugh, hannity and coulter.


MekhongKurt
Comment posted October 4, 2009 @ 7:00 pm

Damn, sfcanyon! Thanks! Now I realize Franken is just another, um, Limbaugh, or Beck, or Hannity . . . should I go on?

Guess the Fourth Amendment doesn't hold much water, huh.


perfectarc
Comment posted October 6, 2009 @ 2:47 am

Great comment …………. and Limbaugh, Hannity, and Beck graduated from what university again???


That’s My Congress » Al Franken: This Senator is Experiencing Constitutional Difficulties. Please Stand By.
Pingback posted October 6, 2009 @ 11:05 am

[...] went declaration-first, reading the 4th Amendment to Assistant Attorney General David Kris and asking him in a public hearing how the authorization of wiretaps that name neither the name nor [...]


Al Franken, Will You Stand With the Patriot Act or With Civil Liberty?
Pingback posted October 6, 2009 @ 11:41 am

[...] With the Patriot Act or With Civil Liberty? Jim When the public was watching, Senator Al Franken read the 4th Amendment aloud to Obama officials, in high rhetorical dudgeon against the Patriot Act. Everybody [...]


Anonymous
Comment posted October 7, 2009 @ 7:35 pm

will you go out w/ me


alfredo
Comment posted October 8, 2009 @ 2:00 am

God for you Senator Al. Keep it up


Aaron
Comment posted October 8, 2009 @ 7:16 pm

Wow…so instead of stating your problem with what he said…you attack who he is. Typical, weak minded reaction.


News Shots 10/08/09 | Johnny No One: I Hope You’re Happy
Pingback posted October 9, 2009 @ 12:07 am

[...] Al Franken reads the 4th amendment to Justice Department official in hearings over Patriot Act renew… [...]


perfectarc
Comment posted October 9, 2009 @ 12:56 am

and you are apparently not aware of the 8 year old who killed himself with an Uzi at a gun show in Ct last year. why?? …. because his parents have an illogical fascination with guns


bradholt
Comment posted October 9, 2009 @ 1:33 am

Hey . . . Doggone it . . . I'm starting to like this guy . . .


ruggy
Comment posted October 15, 2009 @ 2:07 am

I myself wasn't previously aware of this 8-year-old shooting himself in a CT “gun show” case. It struck me as being very strange that any gun would even be loaded at a show, let alone in the hands of an 8-year old. So I had to look this up. What a horrible, horrible story this is. There's more to it than just his parent's interest in guns.

It turns out, this was no ordinary gun show. This was a hands-on machine gun shoot. Actual full-auto machine guns are highly restricted in America, mostly available only to Law Enforcement, and companies that sell to Law Enforcement. But that was not any hindrance in this case because the shoot was being run by the POLICE CHIEF HIMSELF.

The parent of the 8-year old did select the weapon – which was a fully-automatic mini-Uzi machine gun, which I'm guessing was the smallest sized machine gun on the shelf, but still extremely, extremely powerful. It is illegal to provide such a weapon to anyone under 18, so IMHO there should have been no minors in the place to begin with. But at this event, there were not only minors, but everyone under 16 was given free admission – and they had a 15-year old showing the 8-year old how to hold the gun!

Of course the 8-year old lost control of such a powerful weapon. The little guy ended up shooting himself in the head.

Clearly there was a series of irregularities here, with existing laws being repeatedly broken. The police chief who was running the whole thing has been charged with involuntary manslaughter and multiple counts of furnishing machine guns to minors. The man is in serious trouble.

People are going to use this case to argue for more restrictions, but really – what can you do, when you have the Chief of Police himself breaking the gun laws?

What can you really do?!!!

Read the stories and make up your own mind, but the way I view it is that this particular cop developed a significant conflict of interest with his gun business, and this conflict turned into a dangerous problem when he ignored both the laws he is entrusted to enforce, and common sense. I feel the law itself was already sufficient, but it was simply being ignored.

Some links to the story:

http://www.examiner.com/x-1969-Boston-Progressi…

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/08/…


laura
Comment posted October 18, 2009 @ 1:17 am

Go, Senator Franken!
I think perhaps Franken's experience as a comedian better prepared him to tell the truth than other Senators' experience as lawyers or career politicians.

So far, he's been more straightforward and sensible than many of his colleagues. I hope it continues as he gains Senate experience.


Tyler
Comment posted October 24, 2009 @ 1:13 am

See man, not that I even disagree with anything you said, dont have time to factcheck internet forms right now. but i think somone needs to read to you the definition of a sound argument: “if it is impossible for the premises to be true while the conclusion is false, then the argument is unsound”. I think you have cause and effect a bit mixed up sometimes, or at the least, you state opinions (that I happen to disagree with btw) as factual premises to conclude facts.

and dude no shit he is bitter, I cant believe it is on people like myself, a 22 year old college student, and a fucking comedian to step up to hoew fucked up this shit is. wtf is wrong with you rantnting unsound shit on the internet when fucking 10% of America owsn 90% of the pie? especially against the unfathomably small fraction of Americans who actually still care about your freedom enough to DO something? really?


Tyler
Comment posted October 24, 2009 @ 1:14 am

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1. Ad hominem – the first choice of the incompetent, as demonstrated. Good job.

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Still PROFOUNDLY illegal.

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. . . and then easily convert it to full auto.

YIPPEE!

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