This Is What the 2008 Electoral Map Would Look Like if the Election Were Decided by [Fill In the Blank]

By
Tuesday, November 11, 2008 at 5:36 pm

A number of sites have featured a hypothetical electoral map entitled “This Is What the 2008 Electoral Map Would Look Like if the Election Were Decided by 18-29 Year Olds.” Needless to say, it’s a very blue map.

I spent the weekend poring over the CNN exit polls from last Tuesday’s election and converting the state-by-state data for a number of demographics into my own hypothetical electoral maps.

The result is a set of maps that visualize the outcome of an election decided exclusively by the following age groups, genders, income groups, political affiliations, etc.:

Voters age 65 and older:

White voters: (A “black voters” map would be a sea of blue.)

Men:

Women:

Self-described political moderates:

Registered independents:

College graduates:

Voters earning under $50,000 per year:

Voters earning over $50,000 per year:

Voters who are “worried about economic conditions”:

Voters whose “most important issue” was the economy:

Voters whose “most important issue” was the war in Iraq:

(Note: These maps were created with the handy tool at 270towin.com.)

Follow Aaron Wiener on Twitter


Comments

232 Comments

dmaddox
Comment posted November 11, 2008 @ 4:35 pm

Very interesting. I'd like to know how many people described themselves as the different demographics – for instance, what percentage of the American voting populace describe themselves as “political moderates”. But even without that it is very very interesting.


Sharon Anderson
Comment posted November 11, 2008 @ 6:38 pm

65 and over was the only catergory that voted for McCain in California. I suspect that would be southern California and the central valley. I am a 75 year old white woman living in northern California. Granted, I do live on the coast. Attitudes about a lot of things change as you move east. I do not know one McCain supporter in my very large senior group. I am not disputing your findings, Aaron. Thank you for doing this these maps reveal a lot, don't they? I'd be interested to see a similar breakdown in California for Yes on 8. Is it as predictable as I suspect?


paul
Comment posted November 11, 2008 @ 6:58 pm

So in 4 years more older white people like me will be fewer and more young people will be joining the electorate and the recovery of the American democracy from its flirtation with theocratic authoritarianism will continue.

Great work. Change is coming.

52 year old white guy


ajm8127
Comment posted November 11, 2008 @ 7:07 pm

That last one is interesting. I think Mr. Ackerman brought something like that up in a previous post:
http://washingtonindependent.com/17340/those-wh…


Ed Vega
Comment posted November 11, 2008 @ 7:26 pm

I'm almost 60,voted for Obama and I don't know one McCain supporter here in Northern California, and I'm very happy about that …!


anon
Comment posted November 11, 2008 @ 11:48 pm

There you have it…old white males are conservative stick in the muds.


jaxshark
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 3:14 am

How about voters with college educations and voters with graduate degrees?


jaxshark
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 3:15 am

college degrees? graduate degrees?


Anibal Miranda
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 4:31 am

makes sense


Joe Plumber
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 6:30 am

maybe they should have asked voters if thier most important factor in the election was the fact that they hate black people?


Jerry
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 6:54 am

How about a map if real americans voted instread of socialist terrorists who fellate obama


anotherbozo
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 7:44 am

would like to have seen +65 y/o's with college degrees


Chuck
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 9:07 am

How can you say “Registered Independents” in a state like MN which doesn't require registration in a party or another?
No matter. How about seeing what it would look like if only people who were on the brink of foreclosure voted?


Chuck
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 9:11 am

Oh, I ought to add the one in which only half-witted, pansy-assed fools voted. Of course, that is likely to be 100% Blue.


Colin Waters
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 9:12 am

Well if these maps prove anything it is that Americans overwhelming from top to bottom felt like Obama was the man. Any more interesting data that came from this. What about people who thought their vote went to the better candidate who could turn this country around?


Aaron Wiener
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 10:19 am

That would indeed be interesting, since many people attributed the senior McCain vote to racial prejudice, which may have been lower among college graduates. Unfortunately, the exit poll data doesn't break it down that far.


Aaron Wiener
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 10:21 am

dmaddox,

Forty-four percent of respondents nationally described themselves as moderates. You can check out the other demographics here: http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/po…


Aaron Wiener
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 10:25 am

Voters with postgraduate education went 58-40 for Obama — his second-strongest group, next to voters with no high school education (who only make up 4% of the populace). College graduates were actually McCain's strongest group within the education breakdown (50-48 for Obama nationally).


Aaron Wiener
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 10:27 am

Very good point, Chuck. I have to assume that the CNN pollsters asked MN voters about their party affiliation, and 25% considered themselves independents. “Registered independents” might be misleading.


Rebecca2008
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 10:30 am

It's sad that most of the people that felt that the economy was the most important issue/worried about economic conditions voted for Obama. The president has less to do with the economy than the Chairman of the Federal Reserve. Alan Greenspan, who was in this position prior, takes blame for the way the economy is now. Also, the Bush administration wanted more constraints on Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae over 5 years ago. But Barney Frank and his boyfriend, who just happens to run one of these companies, said there was no reason to. Yet blame is being placed on the republicans for the economy? McCain should have won if the economy is what you're worried about.
And to those that think so many people didn't vote for Obama strictly due to him being black… how racist of you.


upchuck
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 11:20 am

how about homophobic, gun toting, bible thumping blowhards?


Joe
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 7:14 pm

“And to those that think so many people didn't vote for Obama strictly due to him being black… how racist of you.”
I think the map speaks for itself. However, I can think the same can be said on the black side as the person who posted this page simply didn't even bother to display the black voter map. It was simply described as a “sea of blue” It's not racist. It's just reality. Many people are racist and I have no idea how many, but I am sure there are plenty as you can see from the polls. Most people were most likely, at least, swayed by the candidates' skin color whether consciously or sub-consciously. If you really feel you studied both candidates fairly and made the right choice without bias, then good for you. But to think that racism didn't play a role in this election I think is just a bit naive. I have no doubt that many people's decisions were racially biased on both sides. It is a reality that is sad but true.


Hyrum
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 7:26 pm

Out of curiosity I would like a map of which third party would win if the two main parties were to disappear.


bookmarkjedi
Comment posted November 12, 2008 @ 8:49 pm

Thank you very much for these. They're very informative. Is it possible to add a more detailed breakdown of voters by income?


OutsiderSA
Comment posted November 13, 2008 @ 4:11 am

.. and I guess that's why they call it the blues…

Elton John


Susan
Comment posted November 13, 2008 @ 5:32 am

Why does no survey ever ask about voters whose most important issue is the environment? If mammals go extinct, these other issues mean nothing.


Nate_Wesley
Comment posted November 13, 2008 @ 8:32 am

There may have been some African-Americans who voted for Barack Obama mostly because he is a biracial African-American. But in comparison to the 70+% voting support African-Americans have lent to White Democratic candidates over the last 30+ years, you'd have to be a dope to assume it wouldn't be different with a Black nominee.

Had Hillary Clinton been the nominee, she would have probably garnered that same overwhelming support by Black voters, although with a lack of enthusiasm like Republican voters had toward John McCain.


Nate_Wesley
Comment posted November 13, 2008 @ 8:38 am

See my response to Joe above.

In the interest of ultimate fairness: White people haven't exactly had to worry much about voting to white candidates they could relate to. And for that matter, Black voters didn't exactly do much for the campaigns of Douglas Wilder, Al Sharpton, Alan Keyes, or Carol Moseley Braun.


jerry is a tool
Comment posted November 13, 2008 @ 6:18 pm

how about a map if unintelligent trolls voted


Pickles
Comment posted November 13, 2008 @ 10:09 pm

Texas is red in everything except the under $50k mark. Go figure.


Asclepius007
Comment posted November 14, 2008 @ 2:10 pm

im from texas and my family and i were all for obama,

most of the mccain people were white rednecks and racists.

but most people in texas are not those stereotypical cowboy accent losers (who fit the categories mentioned above) but the ones who are are mostly looked down upon… i cant stand texas sterotypes….


tttt
Comment posted November 14, 2008 @ 6:23 pm

This must have taken awhile. nice work, gnice vision.


buzz
Comment posted November 14, 2008 @ 7:30 pm

Far more blacks live in the eastern south than in the west. Why are almost all southern states red and the western states blue?


Malrosa
Comment posted November 14, 2008 @ 9:17 pm

I love how no force in hell can turn Idaho blue.


Momma
Comment posted November 15, 2008 @ 5:59 am

I am a 26 yr old white mother with a biracial child. I am a registered independent. I live in an area dominated by Obama supporters. I voted for McCain. It had nothing to do with Obama's color (because to me he looks just like my daughter… skin color wise. God. That would be scary if my daughter looked exactly like him). It had to do with the fact that from all the studying I did of the candidates, I agreed with McCain's views more. Trust me, there were things I disagreed with McCain on, but more so with Obama. I'm not angry Obama won. I hope he does change things. That would be wonderful. I have to say, when I looked at this page, I really thought it was a joke until I read the comments. And, honestly, I am quite curious, WHY I thought it was a joke? Any ideas?


Andrew
Comment posted November 15, 2008 @ 2:43 pm

“im from texas and my family and i were all for obama,

most of the mccain people were white rednecks and racists.” – Asclepius007

What a silly stereotype, if MOST of the McCain people were white redneck racists then why did Obama win Texas in the Map for those making under 50K? Wouldn't the logical connection be that a white redneck racist would make less than 50K. So I have to assume that “most” means over half, so if we don't assume that practically all Obama voters made under 50K then McCain would have won the “Under 50K” map. Why don't you take your baseless stereotypes elsewhere you racist.


BUSHwhacker
Comment posted November 15, 2008 @ 2:46 pm

Momma, i know exactly why you disagreed with Obama on more subjects than McCain. Because you are not an independent, know independent in their right mind would agree with McCain on almost anything. So cut the BS, the best man won… I think we all know that.


KraigKCAA
Comment posted November 15, 2008 @ 3:10 pm

Why are poeple aged 65 and older….. so generally stupid?


Andrew
Comment posted November 15, 2008 @ 7:31 pm

Grow a brain, the man with the most money and the most simple (and illogical) message won. And cause of white guilt and such (Don't believe me? Read exit polling data. More people who said Race was an issue voted for Obama)


Andrew
Comment posted November 15, 2008 @ 7:33 pm

More life experience = Stupid? Riiiight. People over 65 tend to vote conservative because they don't like things to change cause they realize that the country has worked fine so far.


RL
Comment posted November 16, 2008 @ 1:22 am

Even if white redneck racists make less than 50K, it doesn't follow that most people under 50K are rednecks. In Texas, there are probably a lot of Latinos under 50K–those southern border counties, are poor, heavily Latino, and went for Obama. And African-Americans are poorer than whites, on average. So it could be that the poor Latinos and Blacks voted more for Obama and rednecks voted McCain.


penfold
Comment posted November 16, 2008 @ 2:59 am

Of course race was an issue. More than that, race should have been an issue. One of the peculiarities of the American system of voting in the head of state by direct election is that it carries not only political but symbolic weight. People tend to vote for those whom they feel match them symbolically, it is not surprising old people voted McCain, no more than that black people voted for Obama. What is interesting is that in this election the US saw a turnout that was highly unusual for a mature post WWII democracy. One reason for this is the black community moving out from the political sidelines and engaging in the mainstream. Yes, they did so because Obama is 'black', but they know, probably better than most that Obama is, if anything, more 'white' than 'black'. He is mixed race but grew up in a white household in Hawaii. None of that is important though, what is important is the symbol. It is not a defeat of democratic principles to have a man voted in, due in part, to the colour of his skin. If anything it is a momentous justification for democratic process that, in a country that once enslaved and segregated its population, a black man can hold the office of President. I am not American, if anything for the last eight years I could have been accused of being anti-American, but on the 4th November America reminded me of why the democratic world has always looked to the US for guidance and leadership. When theologians talk of Grace, they refer to transformational moments, when we rise above what separates us and come to unity. And for those who dismiss Obama's brand of unity as merely that of a rhetorician, do not underestimate the Grace inherent in that:
“Not only was the teacher wise, but also he imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs. The teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true” – Ecclesiastes 12:9


DBorG
Comment posted November 16, 2008 @ 12:09 pm

did anyone voted for Obama in Alaska?


smilidon
Comment posted November 16, 2008 @ 12:23 pm

no they have more sense than that here.


smw
Comment posted November 16, 2008 @ 1:36 pm

In fact I hear that if you voted for him in Alaska a pack of feral mutated children spawned during a monstrous love affair between Palin and Putin come and tear you limb from limb…


Momma
Comment posted November 16, 2008 @ 1:41 pm

Wow BUSHwhacker… you know why I disagreed with Obama? Independents must vote Democratic? Doesn't that kind of negate the purpose of having an Independent party? Shut up. You have no idea why I agreed with McCain more than Obama.
I never said that I have a problem with Obama winning. I just hope he can accomplish all he has said he will. The world needs it.


No One Owns Me
Comment posted November 16, 2008 @ 3:57 pm

Newsflash: there's no such thing as an Independent Party. There are simply lots of unaffiliated voters, people who are willing to let other people, those who embrace the principles of a particular political party, decide for them who the candidates are going to be in any given election.


jhgjgh
Comment posted November 16, 2008 @ 5:19 pm

You forgot Blacks.


Andrew
Comment posted November 16, 2008 @ 6:06 pm

I'm sure that rednecks voted for McCain, but it is ignorant to say that most McCain supporters are rednecks. More people who voted on race voted for Obama so imore recist tendencies went for him rather than against him.


Andrew
Comment posted November 16, 2008 @ 6:28 pm

Race should NEVER be an issue in government. The government should never see a difference in people skin color and should never legislate along those lines. To say it upholds democratic principles to vote for someone only because of the color of their skin is outrageous. Instead of having a candidate who misleads the public with simple Robin Hood rhetoric who gets voted in because he'll be a novelty candidate we should have someone who wins because they have genuinely good ideas.

Americans should not care what other countries think of us. We should not be voting for people to appease a bunch of Europeans.


Oregon Voter
Comment posted November 16, 2008 @ 7:49 pm

Actually, in Oregon there *is* an Independent Party, but that's a different story….


Daniel
Comment posted November 16, 2008 @ 8:06 pm

It's because of fear and comfortability, numbskull. Intelligence rises per generation. You settle in, you don't get smarter.


Ladygreensleeves
Comment posted November 16, 2008 @ 8:36 pm

can't speak for all but I'm 65 and I not only voted but campaigned for Obama…


Andrew
Comment posted November 16, 2008 @ 11:20 pm

Politics has little to do with intelligence. Politics has to do with logic and common sense mixed with opinion, not how many facts you know. The elderly do vote conservative for MAAANY reasons, including the ones that you listed that I pretty much said already (they don't like things to change aka fear and comfortability) also because of morals and religion and such.

Regardless, there is wisdom and intelligence. The elderly have wisdom, the college graduates have intelligence. I'd say wisdom leads to better political and social decisions than intelligence though purely because wisdom implies you actually understand how things work and intelligence implies you've read how things should work.


Andrew
Comment posted November 16, 2008 @ 11:25 pm

I forgot that it was wrong for someone to stand up for their ideals by voting for candidates that best define them. Shame on those people with independent minds. I guess some independents couldn't bring themselves to vote for the bumbling and manipulative Robin Hood and some couldn't stand voting for the “why do they even call me a republican” maverick man.


penfold
Comment posted November 17, 2008 @ 3:44 am

Andrew:
“Americans should not care what other countries think of us. We should not be voting for people to appease a bunch of Europeans.”

Actually you should, International trade has been the basis of your economy, which is now under serious strain. America after WWII defined itself in terms of an international mandate. To ignore the rest of the world is very dangerous. Take it from a Brit, in 50years we went from the most powerful country in the world with an Empire, larger than any in history before or since, to having to ration bread. If the US wants to maintain its place in a global economy during a time of recession and the shifting of capital and finical markets to the east, it will need the support of its allies. Incidentally as a citizen of a country that has supported yours with the blood of our troops, and stood up to be counted with you against overwhelming international opinion, I am somewhat offended by your derogatory comments.

Do you actually have an argument regarding race or is it limited to “Americans should not care what other countries think of us. We should not be voting for people to appease a bunch of Europeans”. I am all for debate, and realise that there will be many valid points of view here, but blanket proclamations with no argument is a mark of idiocy.


Momma
Comment posted November 17, 2008 @ 1:06 pm

There is an Independent Party in my state too. :)


I pay attention
Comment posted November 17, 2008 @ 1:40 pm

No, if you look at the white voter data, he put that “black voters would be a sea of blue”


Andrew
Comment posted November 17, 2008 @ 1:51 pm

Firstly, I said nothing about trade. Regardless of our personal feelings about other countries we are obviously a country for free trade. There is little to no chance that any country will stop trading with us just cause it doesn't like us. Beyond that, our recession affects most other nations so I doubt that people will run from us when helping us would be in their best interest to restore their economic stability.

Second, as an American I do not care what other countries think of politicians because they do not get votes and they do not have the same love for my country as I do. If I cared more about what Europeans thought about the candidates than which candidate would actually be better for America then I wouldn't be a very good citizen.

Thirdly, I expect my country to come to the aid of all of its allies in time of need. That includes European nations, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Israel and others. If a draft was needed to provide bodies for the defense of my brother countries then I would gladly enlist. On the other hand, to take offense to someone wanting to put the growth their own country before the opinions of foreigners is ignorant. I take some interest in who comes to be the heads of government of our European allies but I do not IN ANY WAY expect any European to care about my opinion or vote for anyone based on my opinions as its none of my business.

I would gladly have a discussion about how making race an issue is immoral and harmful to society but it's not going to get off the ground if all you can do is expect me to put your opinion on which candidate you would have liked to have elected above who would have actually been far more qualified for the office.


Round
Comment posted November 17, 2008 @ 8:16 pm

Take your own advice.


Matt
Comment posted November 17, 2008 @ 9:49 pm

There is a national American Independent Party.


Matt
Comment posted November 17, 2008 @ 9:50 pm

Yeah, they're demonstrating their “sense” with ridiculously uninformed Palin and the felon Ted Stevens. Way to go AK.


Matt
Comment posted November 17, 2008 @ 9:51 pm

My 83-year-old Grandmother in-law just voted for the first time in over 30 years.

For Obama.


Matt
Comment posted November 17, 2008 @ 9:52 pm

Or AK, TX or AL. No surprise.


geltab
Comment posted November 18, 2008 @ 6:51 am

alaska is the new arkansas. bunch of backward hillbillies like the palins.
and you!


geltab
Comment posted November 18, 2008 @ 6:59 am

the country working fine so far is an illusion.
if you are over 65 and saying drill baby drill, you are irresponsible.
you will leave your grandchildren with nothing just for an extra few years of comfort?
seniors want to spend their inheritance in an imprudent manner, so we will strip them of it.
seniors don't see anything wrong with SS because they are collecting.
they don't care about polarbears because they are unlearned about the true consequences.
seniors think the end of days is coming and they are responsible for making it happen.
they think that they can just sit in their easy chairs while the whole world burns up.
and they think that the war in iraq somehow is equal to the second world war in importance.


geltab
Comment posted November 18, 2008 @ 7:03 am

just because you have a neat antic dote about intelligence and wisdom means that old people are strong enough to do what is right?
they are not.


Andrew
Comment posted November 18, 2008 @ 8:47 am

Firstly, to NOT say drill baby drill is irresponsible. There is nothing irresponsible about wanting to pursue the only rational way to end foreign energy dependence. To think that we can stay stable and continue to be dependent or blindly jump into using inefficient alternate energies is ignorant.

Secondly, yes, seniors are not the voice to look to for comprehensive Social Security reform.

Thirdly, polar bear populations have been rising for decades. They were only given endangered status due to a phantom scare.

Lastly, I can't think of any seniors I know that think the “end of days” is coming.


Andrew
Comment posted November 18, 2008 @ 8:51 am

My argument is sound, if you disagree then provide a dissenting opinion. Also, the young are not world wise enough to do what is right. Obviously they know little since they voted in droves for an inexperienced candidate with absolutely atrocious ideas. People are blinded by “hope” and “change” when hope has nothing to do with ideologies and the change Obama represents is bad. Obama is not a man, he is a fad.


Andrew
Comment posted November 18, 2008 @ 8:52 am

Thanks for providing a logical rebuttal…. oh wait, you didn't. I guess that means either one doesn't exist or you lack the necessary knowledge of the issue to put forward one.


Andrew
Comment posted November 18, 2008 @ 8:56 am

No surprise, Republican states vote Republican. Show me the day New York or California turns red. Their messiah has come and I wish he had pulled a Moses and just led all the Liberals to Canada instead of corrupting the American ideals.


Andrew
Comment posted November 18, 2008 @ 4:22 pm

Do you even think before you post something?


Andrew
Comment posted November 18, 2008 @ 4:24 pm

At least they weren't as bad as D.C. Remember how they reelected that mayor who was caught with hookers and coke?


Chris P.
Comment posted November 18, 2008 @ 8:45 pm

Andrew,

Old people also tend to vote Republican because they grew up in a time when segregation was still practiced in half the country and racist thinking was far more common and acceptable. Old habits die hard. That being said, the Republican Party is in serious trouble because as more and more of these old people die off, they are taking their ideology with them to the graves. Based on the stats, the vast majority of young people are voting democratic…and it's not because they are “ignorant” or “uninformed”. It's because they are earning college degrees more than previous generations.. They are simply more educated and have been introduced to greater amounts of culture and diversity.

I also want to comment on the South voting so emphatically for John McCain. According to Adam Nossiter's November 11, 2008 editorial in the New York Times, less than 1/3 of Southern whites voted for Obama, whereas 43 percent of whites voted for Obama nationally. 9/10 of all whites in the state of Alabama voted for McCain. 60% of whites in Kentucky who voted for Hillary Clinton in the primary, voted for John McCain during the general election. Amazingly, in some Southern areas, people supported McCain more than they did Bush four years earlier, even though Bush is more conservative than McCain.

Andrew, how do you explain this? It's race. The South was, still is, and always will be a separate, racist entity filled with beer-drinking, deer-hunting, uneducated, poor white trash.


c
Comment posted November 18, 2008 @ 8:49 pm

Hey man, how did you do this?


Mike
Comment posted November 19, 2008 @ 1:08 am

i agree, but you blow it at the end with making a blanket attack on the South. I hate them too, but it just ruins your point to call them white trash (even tho they are). oh well. he won, so the racists will just have to eat it.


Andrew
Comment posted November 19, 2008 @ 5:29 am

Lets see… how to refute this… hmmm… here it goes

They grew up in a time when segregation was still practiced and was a big part of the DEMOCRATIC party. Now, to be fair, the southern democratic party was socially conservative at that time and does not align fully with the current Democratic party but the point still stands; the Republican party HAS NEVER BEEN FOR SEGREGATION. So to say that old people are overwhelmingly segregationist is a stretch, so say that is why they vote Republican is BEYOND ridiculous.

Now, about the youth. The young generally vote Democratic because they are less wise, many are uninformed, and ALL of them have been subject to the biased media and school systems (the young are notorious for being easy to brainwash). Beyond that, a college degree does little to make you knowledgeable about politics or political ideas (knowing how to derive functions or write a sentence without grammatical errors does not help you know whether or not abortion is wrong). As people age they move more to the right, it's history.

About the whole “1/3 of Southern Whites voted for Obama”. Ever heard of the “Red South”? The South usually votes majority Republican, you are not revealing anything new. If you actually look at exit polls then you will see that people who said race was a factor in their vote placed their vote for Obama the majority of the time (53% to 45%). This shows that his skin color HELPED him more than hurt him so if anything then the country is more racist against whites than blacks. I'd be more worried about prejudice against the elderly (as you might have shown yourself) since nearly twice as many people said that was a factor in their vote and 66% of those voted for Obama.

If you wish to generalize by geography then should we say the North and West are all brainwashed hippie elitists. I know that's not true however, since there were some votes for McCain in both the North AND the West ;)

Seriously though, in the end the Democratic platform has more mentions of race than a KKK mission statement. The Republican platform (as far as I've seen so far) is devoid of any mention of race, and that is as it should be. The government should not see skin color at all. I find the Democratic platform to be offensive in their inclusion of race in their policies and the Republican platform is by far the least racist of the two.

Regardless of all of this, I thank you for using good sentence structure and grammar in your argument and actually including statistics to try and support your argument. I respect your opinion except for the last paragraph.


Andrew
Comment posted November 19, 2008 @ 5:31 am

Oh yea, forgot, all exit poll statistics I used were pulled from the CNN website. http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/…


Littl3Gr33n
Comment posted November 20, 2008 @ 5:43 am

Others who could make less than $50k per year: Legal defense lawyers, community clinic doctors, other community organization professionals, school teachers, some university professors, and many others to whom a better quality of life for all is more important that a Rolex on one's own wrist.


Littl3Gr33n
Comment posted November 20, 2008 @ 5:45 am

Just hang on: reason approaches. The old Red South has lost Virginia, North Carolina and Florida.


Littl3Gr33n
Comment posted November 20, 2008 @ 5:47 am

Yes, you gotta love Texas, no matter what. If the only good thing to come out of Texas were ever to be Ann Richards, that would be enough. (Richards, on the first Bush: “Born on third and thought he'd hit a triple.”)


uwstout
Comment posted November 20, 2008 @ 7:22 am

yo dude I don't know how you can call the young uneducated and brainwashed. Are you saying the educational system you set up sucked ballz? The truth is the computer era has brought on a new way of thinking. People no longer are smart for knowing tons of facts, since they can be found at anytime. The real brain power comes in the form of thought. To be able to take in both sides, hear what they have to say, and then use logic and reasoning to come to your conclusion. The old grew up in a time when trust was a big factor. They still believe what they see and hear in the media. The youth just know that you can't believe what you hear. We are in a constant search of truth. We need facts to base an opinion off. I watched John McCain straight up lie in the presidential debates. Obama voted against this 49billion times, look at the record. Like ok im looking at the record and not seeing it. Idk about you but a man who lies his way into office seems like he would be more opt to oil lobbists. Money and the power, never enough. And I am currently in college, so i guess I'm brainwashed by all my hippie teachers. Or maybe I'm just not a selfish old prick who doesn't give a shit about the environment or the future of the world as long as that no good Arab terrorist, president elect Obama doesn't take any of my money. Its like people are so obsessed with their own status they are unwilling to share money for the things we all use.

“…blamed the voracious American pursuit of private consumption and the engines of corporate advertising that fed it for neglecting “social consumption”—the roads, schools, hospitals, and other infrastructure needed for a humane society. ”

And forget about abortions, everyone. How can the religious vote Republican based strictly on abortion. It is the only issue they seem to care about. What about helping out the poor. Or did they just not try as hard growing up. Give it up, the inequality is outrageous is the public school system. woops class is over gotta go roast my tries, whhhhoa


Andrew
Comment posted November 20, 2008 @ 12:23 pm

I didn't set up any education system. I can't think of any person who did. It's teachers and the media that brainwash our children as they grow up. Beyond that, show me where McCain lied during the debates and I can show you where Obama lied. That's what politicians do.

You don't seem to understand that conservatives care as much if not more about the poor than liberals. We, however, are not willing to steal other people's money to give to the poor. Conservatives favor charitable donation over stealing money that doesn't belong to you from other people. I can't see someone who votes liberal really saying they care about the poor cause it's not like THEY are giving any money to the poor, just the rich people.

Why would people “forget” about abortions? If someone was going around shooting people in the head every hour unchecked I wouldn't say “forget that murderer who we refuse to imprison”. No caring human being is going to “forget” about the unjust murder of countless children.

Also, I haven't seen any comprehensive plan by Obama to improve inequality in the schooling system while the Republican platform supports the highly efficient voucher system.

In the end, the only people who can be considered selfish in this election are the ones who voted for Obama because they are banking that the rich will pay for the poor and they themselves (the voter) will have to pay nothing and maybe even make more. Not to mention that McCain's plan has shown that it would increase growth by twice the amount of Obama's plan in practically all sectors.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/cda08-09…


uwstout
Comment posted November 20, 2008 @ 7:58 pm

yea i was kind of referring to you as in the living old. Obviously your views are deeply embedded in your head and anyone with that corrupt of a point of view can turn any comment on any person. I care about the poor, I just don't want to know about them, I'm a douche. I care about the earth, i just want to drill more oil, I'm a douche. Ive got 50 rooms in my house I haven't entered in years, but I'm to douchey to pay taxes. Instead I'll use my money to lobby the president so he can set up a loophole to commemorate the dinosaurs, so I can pay less in taxes. I have one room in my house without a 50″ flat screen, what if guests come? I can't be paying taxes I'm a douche. I don't even know why I'm typing anymore cause I'm sure you'll just claim things you don't really believe in like a total douche Republican. Im sure if I shot you in the head no one would care as long as your parents douche views on politics died along with you. McCain's plan is going to make more money, or wait his plan is to freeze all spending, well maybe that would make more money, I'm not really sure. Lets cut spending on education, fucking brilliant. I'm sure the Japanese won't pull to much further ahead than us in schooling. I mean i have better things to do, like eat unborn fetus'.


Socrates
Comment posted November 20, 2008 @ 8:00 pm

Man! That Andrew guy is a f–ing idiot!


ORLY?
Comment posted November 21, 2008 @ 5:44 am

Seriously uwstout? You have managed to put forth the most, idiotic, meaningless, crass response to what has so far been a seemingly fair, two sided debate. You have taken to to the level of what I believe a nine-year-old would do. Take everything and add a funny word (douche) you found it so useful you plagued your response with it. Everything you said in the previous statement only goes to further Andrew's cause. You make yourself look like an idiot and put a burden on those who may share your ideals to make a serious response that will carry weight in a debate. Having to apologize for the idiots who share our view can be what leads to the downfalls… kind of like the stereotypes going around. I may not agree with everything Andrew has to say, but I believe he has put forth an effort to intelligently show his side of things. You sir, are a joke. Please do not post anything else unless you have seriously thought about what it is you are saying.


Andrew
Comment posted November 21, 2008 @ 8:43 am

Thank you ORLY, it is nice to see someone who can go about a debate with class instead of mindlessly spouting off inane comments. You have shown the kind of levelheaded respect for thoughtful debate that entitles you to a good amount of respect yourself.

Honestly, I cannot make any sense out of uwstout's comment. Are you just saying rich people suck or what? It seems like your method of argument is making ridiculous comments then in order to stifle any rebuttal from me you say that I'm a douche Republican and you don't care about my opinion. Btw, show me where McCain said he was going to strip education spending.


Rudy
Comment posted November 21, 2008 @ 8:42 pm

Andrew,

You say “People over 65 tend to vote conservative because they don't like things to change cause they realize that the country has worked fine so far.” Under the 8 years of republican rule are you doing better? If so, congratulation, must people in this country aren't however. You say Obama is a fad, can you clear this up for me, because he is black, because he inspires hope? Back to the change issues you have or believe seniors have. Now I won't say liberals have been the only changing force behind Americas great changes, because they haven't, but I would suspect that one would have to agree that if this country of ours hadn't made drastic changes to our social, religious, and moral values we wouldn't be this great nation we are today. I understand though, change is scary, especially if you are doing O.K, but I would go so far as to say it's patriotic for Americans to want change and to step out of our comfort zone and make this a better country.

You are easy to comment and say that “People are blinded by “hope” and “change” when hope has nothing to do with ideologies and the change Obama represents is bad.” Can you also explain this, what part of this change do you not agree with? Also may I comment on the “hope” part. In my eyes hope is a big part of politics these days. With so many grim days behind and ahead of us, people need something to hope for, they need a symbol and Mccain couldn't do that for 67,842,818 Americans. For some people when a candidate can inspire them, that's all it takes.

On top of the hope and inspiration for many people is was about race, white and black for better or worse. A lot of people voted against Obama because he was black, or they thought he was a terrorist or whatever it was, that is a fact. People also voted because he was black, another fact. However a lot white and people of color did so in part because him getting elected showed that America is a place of real opportunity, we now practice what we preach and that is a miracle in itself. In all honesty I don't think Obama would have won if so many things hadn't fallen apart from Mccain, which says something when the residing president has a 28% approval rating. History shows when it gets that low in the end of the term the incumbent party loses the election. So either Obama was really bad (which I might add ran one of the best presidential candidacy runs ever), but because of unfavorable conditions toward Mccain he won, or he overcame peoples fears about race, youth, and change. I guess when it comes down to it, it's all debatable, although I would direct you to the white voter map. I know, I know, the black vote is overwhelming democratic, but blacks have always voted at least 80% democrat.

Before this post gets to long (oops!) I would just like to comment on the youth issue. You know what, I better not, because if you can't see that wisdom is not something given with age, but something earned, then you don't really care either way.


Rodg
Comment posted November 22, 2008 @ 3:22 am

Ron Paul is making another bid for 2012! He didn't make the ticket this past year because the corporatocracy wasn't having any of that “We the People” nonsense. But don't take my word for it.

http://www.newser.com/story/36715/paul-delegate…

Are we going to let this happen again? Let's keep control of OUR country! Stop letting these grinning politicians filibuster their way into the White House. We all had no choice but to vote for the lesser of two evils this time around. Let Obama make/steal a couple billion, and then his turn is over. 2012 is the year we can have our country back!!!!! RP'12


Andrew
Comment posted November 22, 2008 @ 6:02 am

I'll respond to every paragraph in order.

First, you seem to think that the President is the arbiter of our economy. He is not. Look at Clinton's Presidency, he had a big economic boon when he did practically nothing for the economy. He received a boom because of the internet boom. The economy and Presidency are not as intertwined as people think. The main reason for the current economic downturn is the mortgage problem that was forced by Democrats, the spike in oil we had that hurt many many companies, and the reduction in the value in the dollar. Also, if Bush had stayed with the conservative base it would have reduced the effects of these 3 things but he strayed. Change, however, is not a positive thing in itself. The subjectivity of change comes in whether it helps or hurts. Obama's change means reduction in military strength, slowing growth, and increasing size of government. We need none of these things.

Second, People saw “Hope” with Hitler too. Don't fall into the trap. “Hope” is not a political policy. “Hope” does not run a country. The problem is that “Hope” is just a broad phrase used to describe a thoughtless emotional reaction to simple rhetoric. I can be hopeful that stealing money from people who have earned it and giving it to people who haven't necessarily earned it but that doesn't mean a thing. He is a fad because people like his novelty: simple rhetoric, affluent black male (more people voting for him because of his race rather than against him), high media coverage, internet phenomenon. He has all the hallmarks of someone who people follow because they think it's hip.

Third. Hmmm, 55/43 for white voters and 95/4 for black voters… which one is more lopsided? Putting (or not putting) a President in office because of his skin color is wrong. More so, it is silly to say we needed a black president to show that our Country is the land of opportunity, people already know that.

Lastly, wisdom is something that comes from experience. Experience is something the youth (and Obama ;) ) don't have. Then again, you can throw away anything I say cause I'm 19 anyhow.


Andrew
Comment posted November 22, 2008 @ 6:04 am

If Ron Paul hadn't been against the war he might have had a chance to win the nomination… also people were turned off because Ron Paul supporters seemed even crazier than Obama supporters.


Andrew
Comment posted November 22, 2008 @ 6:04 am

Glad to see people can come up with constructive criticism ^_^ It's okay if you're not smart enough to formulate a competent rebuttal, not everyone can.


Andrew
Comment posted November 22, 2008 @ 6:09 am

Edit: “I can be hopeful that stealing money from people who have earned it and giving it to people who haven't necessarily earned it but that doesn't mean a thing.”

I haven't slept in a while, I need to rewrite this sentence

I can be hopeful that stealing money from the people who employ the workers of America and giving that money to other people will help the economy but my “Hope” is worthless since logic would say that taking money from my boss would lead him to pay me less anyhow or fire me.


johnnyrocket
Comment posted November 22, 2008 @ 6:50 pm

Notice something wrong with Oklahoma? It's always red….in every category.

“Self-described political moderates:”?, those Oklahoman sure don't know what the political center means.


John Doe
Comment posted November 23, 2008 @ 1:54 am

Interesting how the only McCain won was first. (Hmmm. Why would that be?) That pretty much lost me right there.


Russ
Comment posted November 23, 2008 @ 2:21 am

Interesting that you would equate private scandals with scandals of public office (in the case of Stevens) or scandals of vast ignorance (in the case of Palin). I would prefer a candidate who had an imperfect private life but had an ability to govern.


Andrew
Comment posted November 23, 2008 @ 6:13 am

I only notice something right with Oklahoma… it's always red.


Lindsay
Comment posted November 23, 2008 @ 8:23 am

This is pathetic!!!!!!


Andrew
Comment posted November 23, 2008 @ 8:53 am

I assume he took exit polling data by state


Me
Comment posted November 23, 2008 @ 10:20 am

I'm an independent. I voted for Obama. Here's why:

1. McCain wanted to continue to fight in Iraq. That is silly, as the Taliban are based out of Afghanistan currently.

2. Economics. Granted, the president doesn't control the economics of the country directly, but he DOES greatly affect them (vetoing or not vetoing certain bills, how much he designates to be spent on various ventures, etc.)

3. Environment: Our world is dying. Straight up. This is a verified FACT. (The only ones who are doubting this are those who've been listening to propaganda that was specifically paid for by the oil companies. The vast majority of actual weather & geological scientist are telling us we're in big trouble. If you've ever heard of the frog in the pot of boiling water scenario (and if you haven't, it goes like this. A frog dropped in a pot of boiling water will jump out immediately. But one in a warm pot where the pot is turned up degree by degree, won't jump out, eventually getting boiled alive, because it doesn't have the 'jolt' factor) we are currently in the process of being boiled alive. MORE LIVES HAVE BEEN LOST TO GLOBAL WARMING THAN THE WAR IN IRAQ! Heat related deaths have taken out thousands across Europe. The ridiculous strength of the weather that hit Greensburough and New Orleans are direct results of Global warming.

4. Oil Dependence is bad. Oil in GENERAL is bad. “Drill baby drill” is NOT a responsible solution to foreign dependence on oil. We have all kinds of alternative energy solutions to oil, but we're not using them because oil is so EASY. You know what a monopoly is? It's when one thing dominates the market, not giving choice. It may not fit the full political definition, but oil dominates our travel methods. It's a monopoly that needs to be broken. The way to get off of foreign oil is to get off of oil overall. (Almost every oil use has a substitute. Electric cars to gas – electric cars are much cheaper in the long run, corn oils instead of crude oils as the basis for plastics – unfortunately a bit more expensive but much cleaner, etc.

5. What the international community thinks of us IS an important thing. Think about it, if you go around harassing your neighbors, they're going to call the cops or deal with you themselves. If a nation goes around harassing other nations, those nations are going to drop alliances with us or their people are going to fly planes into our buildings. If the U.S. is hated, there WILL be consequences. This is about playing nice instead of being the playground bully. As Americans, we should be heroes, not villains.

6. Fear. Fear is a plague across America. It's one of the safest nations in the world, and we have a population that's often paralyzed with fear. What's McCain do? He plays on our fears. He makes the epidemic worse. Obama, for the most part, didn't play on our fear, despite the fact it can often raise ratings. I respect him for that.

7. Campaign funding. Yes, Obama had one of the most well-funded campaigns in history. That in itself is an eyebrow raiser. The impressive part is when you look at WHO funded each candidate and where that money came from. Obama's campaign money was fully disclosed. Anyone could look and see who was funding him. And OVER 80% was from average Americans donating to him. That funding was raised through effectively the same method as girlscouts selling girlscout cookies. Completely honest. McCain's funding? 35% of it was undisclosed (didn't know WHO it came from, and he wouldn't tell… why?) Only 25% came from average Americans. The vast majority of the rest? Big corporations.

8. Balancing the wealth. Take money from the rich and give it to the poor? That's actually a good idea when the gap between rich and poor is growing out of control. We've reach a system where 'you have to have money to make money'. This is a BAD thing. A good system is where 'everyone has an equal chance to earn money.' Most employers do NOT pay the people an equivalent amount for the amount of money they bring in. It is NOT a matter of the rich are getting money stolen from them to give to someone who's not working, but taking money back from those (many who gained it via dubious methods) and using it to repair our tattered economy. And the poor having money does a lot for the rich in the long run ANYWAY. As the dollar becomes stronger, the overall value of the rich's money increases, even if the listed dollar amount is lower. Everyone wins with a balanced economy, the only drawback for the rich is less prestige & control over poorer people. And as a democracy, we should be about freedom.

Reasons I hesitated about Obama:
1. The space program. The space program is a vital part of not only our country, but the world's future. Obama's not doing much for it. We're on the verge of finally breaking away from being restricted to Earth. As the saying goes, “Land… they're not making more of it”. We need cheap and easy space travel post haste. We're using up resources, we're running out of space with overpopulation. The main place where there is more, is up.

2. The right to bear arms. I am totally against gun control. Why? Because an armed populous serves 3 major uses. One is crime deterrient. It's been shown that when a population is armed, crime drops. Why? Because when you give someone cause for self-defense, and you know that person is likely armed, you're less likely to commit the crime. Another is that the more powerful the populace, the less likely for another country to invade. (If you have to fight a countries army AND its people, it quickly becomes not worth it). Another is government deterrent. The government can be swayed, controlled, manipulated, etc. If someone ever got 'critical mass' and took control of the government, an armed population allows chances for rebellion to be more successful. Historically, most nations that have retained freedom for the populates at large almost always had an armed populace. Yes, there are bonuses to controlling guns, but the benefits for guns outweigh the benefits against them. (Think M.A.D.D. on a more personal level, the same reason most nuclear countries aren't bombing the heck out of other nuclear countries.)

Overall, the democrats had more of the important issues this time around. (Although it was still pretty close. My 3 key issues are: Environment, Space Program and support for evolving our system towards a Direct Democracy.)


Joe
Comment posted November 23, 2008 @ 1:09 pm

interesting. I wonder how it would have gone if both had had equal resources. I like Obama but I can't argue that he had a HUGE money advantage.


Momma
Comment posted November 23, 2008 @ 1:28 pm

I think I'm gonna start an Andrew fan club. :)


Andrew
Comment posted November 23, 2008 @ 2:53 pm

Your post is not really an argument, more a statement of positions. I still feel compelled to comment on it though just to clear things up.

1. Iraq is the main battleground in the war on terror. Osama himself has said this and many of the enemy combatants over there are terrorists. Also, abandoning the Iraqis while they are trying to rebuild their government sends a horrible message to any countries in need.

2. Economy… http://www.heritage.org/Research/taxes/cda08-09…

3. Nothing to say here since you have your mind made up. Just remember that A) there is no scientific consensus on man-made climate change B) The arbiter of temperature in our solar system is the sun, not gasses that make up less than a percent of our atmosphere. Personally I think that the whole movement is just a scare tactic so scientists can get more cash from making up studies and the liberals can cash in on selling people inefficient alternative energies. I mean, the temperature on other planets is going up so I don't see why people expect us to be different.

4. Oil is good. It is highly efficient and decently plentiful. Drilling allows us to keep more of our own money. Personally I'm looking forward to Nuclear and Hydrogen power but we should use what we have. Alternative energy sources are wildly inefficient, there is practically no incentive to switch.

5. People will always hate who is in first place. Also, other countries do not choose the president and if they want to have a specific candidate then they can suck it. I know that doesn't sound like a respectful position but it is SO pretentious for other countries to think they can have a say in who we elect that all I can say to them is suck on my balls. Seriously, I DO NOT CARE. There is practically no country with a legit reason to hate us and many with legit reasons to LOVE us. If Europe hates us so much then they should pay back the Marshall Plan (adjusted for inflation).

6.Fear is necessary. A nation without fear is foolish and vulnerable. Obama didn't play on fears because he wants people to be as irrational and naive as possible.

7. I don't really understand this point. McCain took public funds so he couldn't get direct contributions to my knowledge. Just because he brainwashed enough people to donate to his campaign doesn't make him a good president.

8. Stealing money is not a good policy. Beyond that, the rich already pay the majority of the tax burden. That doesn't sound like equality to me. In this country the pay in jobs go up as the skill level required goes up, and that is as it should be. If you think that people aren't paid enough then make your own company and pay them whatever you want. We already have relative freedom of opportunity, to reward people for not taking the time to learn a trade or profession. And if you think taking money from the people who run the economy will strengthen it then you are not thinking clearly.

Other:
1. Agree

2. Agree


Andrew
Comment posted November 23, 2008 @ 2:54 pm

Thanx ^_^


Rudy
Comment posted November 24, 2008 @ 12:33 pm

You know at first Andrew I thought you were a mindless conservative drone, I really did. You have shown me however, that you are a crazy conservative nut. You know your facts, kind of, but you pull that crazy right wing BS. You don't concede to to points you have no rebuttal to and you use sketchy logic among other things. I guess in the end I don't really care to much when it's apparent you clearly have an agenda here. But good job, I'm sure you would make comedian Rush Limbaugh proud.


Andrew
Comment posted November 24, 2008 @ 5:59 pm

Good technique, once you fail to come up with a rebuttal you resort to personal attacks. Show me a point I had no rebuttal for and I will gladly concede or provide for one. It's funny that people attack Rush Limbaugh though. He has done more with a GED than you ever will with a college degree and he has most likely already helped this world FAR more than you ever will.


mike
Comment posted November 24, 2008 @ 8:40 pm

What about a map of just chinese voters?


Andrew
Comment posted November 25, 2008 @ 10:12 am

Do you mean Chinese or Asian?


gray
Comment posted December 24, 2008 @ 6:44 pm

thanks for this, I appreciate the effort.


Jared
Comment posted December 28, 2008 @ 8:20 pm

1. It doesn't matter what Iraq is NOW, the fact is that the American public was lied to about Iraq. If Osama bin Laden was in Iraq, we should have been told that. Not “Saddam is going to kill us all if we don't get him now!” I'm not really arguing on Iraq though, we need to fix the mess we made ASAP and I don't think you will find any sane person who wants to stay there a day longer than we need to. McCain's “100 years of war in Iraq” gaffe really dissuaded me from voting for him. The only thing that war generates is the guarantee that our children will grow up to see the same kind of violence.

2. Even your source claims that the plans are not comparable. Besides the fact that they are BOTH beneficial for the economy, they conveniently ignore the effects of their plans in the long run. Obama's progressive plan is aimed at creating more jobs, and getting people off the streets. McCain's is focused solely on numbers- with his plan, it doesn't matter who is making the money, as long as it is still flowing.

3. Your ignorance on this subject is astounding. There has been a scientific consensus on the subject for years. The controversy surrounding global warming and the environmental crisis is not a scientific one. Your second point (B) is laughable. The Sun isn't the only arbiter of temperature, are you aware of how much energy humans produce? The problem isn't that the temperature is raising, it's how much the temperature is raising by, and the fact that there is no reason to believe it will ever fluctuate with the infrastructure that we have in place. Please do some more research before making baseless, blatantly false claims like this one. Someone who doesn't know better may think you are actually serious.

4. Oil is extremely useful, nobody could argue against that. However, it causes a ton of problems, most notably forcing us to maintain diplomacy with countries that harbor terrorists and commit horrible civil rights violations (Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Iran etc).

I would like a source that can seriously claim that Hydrogen power/other alternative energy sources are as inefficient as you claim. The reasons for inefficiency are because of limited technology- which is being revamped by the day and can easily be in place within the next decade. Keep in mind that these sources are both 100% renewable, completely safe, beneficial to the environment and can only be improved upon. I would say that those are several pretty strong incentives to switch, and that was after only about 1.5 seconds of thinking of reasons to switch from oil.

Also, speaking of inefficient, the plans for American offshore drilling are so horrible that I can't believe that you'd suggest them here. Let me quote a SOURCE (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008…

“It would take at least a decade for oil companies to obtain permits, procure equipment, and do the exploration necessary to get the oil out of the ground, most industry analysts say. And even then, they add, the amount of new oil produced would probably be too small to significantly affect world oil prices.”

So basically, with the Republican offshore drilling program, we get to waste taxpayer money AND irreparably destroy the environment! How could we argue against that?

5. “People hate us because we're the best” “People hate us because of our freedoms” etc are some of the most blatantly ignorant lines I've ever heard. People don't hate us because we're free, they hate us because our armies travel the world destroying things, interfering with politics around the globe, we destabilize entire regions of the world and then we force our culture down their throats. Please, refer to the huge amounts of support that the Iraqi shoe-thrower has gotten for more information here. Needless to say, if this is what you really believe then you need to open your eyes.

6. Fear is not necessary at all. How could you even suggest such a ridiculous concept? Do you think the founding fathers drafted the Constitution because they were scared? You don't seem to understand the difference between “fear” and “vigilance”. Obama didn't play on fears because his campaign managers were smart enough to realize that people were getting sick of Rovian politics, using fear to promote candidates that were obviously unqualified got old to the American people. Fear is divisive, it is only used when one group wants to exercise control over another. Vigilance, on the other hand, unites us all.

7. Have you ever stopped to think that people who disagree with you may not have been “brainwashed”, but might just see a different side of the problem? Your ignorance shines even more brightly here. His point is that McCain wasn't open about his campaign, with 35% of his funds from “undisclosed” persons. Whether or not he was doing something shady doesn't matter, it just makes you wonder why he chose to hide such an important part of his campaign. Americans are finally starting to get tired of being kept in the dark. If you want to be elected, you should have to answer to the voters. It's a simple issue of ethics. This problem was magnified when Mrs. Palin decided to spend campaign money on $150,000 of expensive clothing, which is more than most American families will make off of 3 years of salary.

8. It's not “stealing money”. Obama's plan is to slightly increase taxes that ALREADY EXIST, and only for the smallest amount of people. If that is really what you believe, then you can accuse EVERY president of “stealing money” from people, and you can equally accuse McCain of wanting to steal from people. Please stop being so ignorant when making claims. You bring up several good points but they are so clouded with misinformation and bias that it is really difficult to take you seriously.

Other:
1. I also agree that space exploration needs more funding, however given our current situation I think that there are more important issues to take care of.

2. I also am a 100% advocate of the right to bear arms, I agree.

I know that this reply is a little late, but I just stumbled upon this article today. I don't care if anyone replies, of if you, Andrew, ever sees it. I just wanted to vent and I saw this ignorant, misinformed post and I wanted to right some wrongs :)


Jared
Comment posted December 28, 2008 @ 8:22 pm

Youre right, his personal attacks on you are just as irresponsible as the misinformed ignorant post you made. It doesn't matter if you have a rebuttal, the point is that your rebuttals were wrong. “I said it in a serious tone with a straight face, so you must take me seriously” is not a valid argument.

And yeah, why should someone attack Rush Limbaugh? He's just a racist homophobic drug addict that happens to have a couple million listeners….it's not like he's making a negative influence on a huge portion of our population or anything. If that's not helping the world, I don't know WHAT is.


Jared
Comment posted December 28, 2008 @ 8:34 pm

Your understanding of history here is lacking. In the times of segregation, the ideologies of the democrats and republicans were basically reversed. The only thing that is similar about democrats now and democrats 75 years ago is the name. This is especially true when you go back further, to the Whigs and even to the Democratic-Republican parties. If we're going to start labelling people based on what their ancestors did, this whole country is in a lot of trouble.

That was the only thing I noticed here though, I actually agree with your main point. Race shouldn't matter. The only reason race is a factor at ALL is because of the irresponsible mainstream media on both sides of the party lines.


Jared
Comment posted December 28, 2008 @ 8:46 pm

Well, the issues with the voucher system is that they cause huge class divisions. Poor people can not get as good an education as rich people under the system, and that only makes it that much harder for them to get a job later on and pay for their children's vouchers. It's not so much about making the poor poorer as it is about making the rich richer. Basically, under that kind of system you would have to have money already to make more money (which is obviously unfair to most people).

And again, you demonstrate that you have no knowledge of how taxation actually works. It's not like “rich people, find some hobos and give them money or else you go to jail”. Rich people are giving money to EVERYBODY, including themselves, to pay for services that EVERYBODY, including themselves, takes advantage of. Social Security, medicare, roads, schools, etc. The list goes on. How is it fair to force someone making $10,000 a year to foot society's bill, people who are so poor that they have to choose between paying taxes and eating, when Joe the CEO is making $300 million for driving the economy into the ground would have no issues putting in his share? Your ideology doesn't make sense morally or economically.


Jared
Comment posted December 28, 2008 @ 8:47 pm

I would rather have a President that loved hookers than a President that doesn't know Africa is a continent (like Mrs. Palin).


Jared
Comment posted December 28, 2008 @ 8:59 pm

oh and sorry to reply twice to the same comment, but I missed your misrepresentation of abortion. It's not the same as shooting people, because when you murder someone they are ALIVE first. There is no scientific reason to believe that a fetus is capable of life, it is a parasite by definition and unable to sustain itself until late into the pregnancy. Just because a fetus CAN be a child, doesnt mean that it IS a child.

Fetuses aren't children, they are fetuses. The sooner you can make that distinction, the sooner you can hold an informed opinion on the matter. I am a perfectly caring human being and I know the difference between murder and abortion.

I am personally of the belief that if you are not a pregnant woman, you don't deserve an opinion on abortion.

Also, this isn't anything against Andrew although it probably applies…but how can you be both pro-life AND pro-war? Are you also pro-death penalty? The entire pro-life side of the Republican party is illogical….


Is the fox news channel a racist channel? - Q&A WIKI
Pingback posted February 4, 2009 @ 7:41 pm

[...] other well-educated and thinking people as a group do not consider Fox News a serious news source (http://washingtonindependent.com/17988/t... and neither do any of the 870,000 or so people who participated in this informal poll: [...]


This Is What the 2008 Electoral Map Would Look Like if the Election Were Decided by [Fill In the Blank] « ScatterShot
Pingback posted February 10, 2009 @ 10:44 pm

[...] Map Would Look Like if the Election Were Decided by [Fill In the Blank] Originally printed in The Washington Independent on December 31, [...]


ehutch
Comment posted March 15, 2009 @ 12:12 pm

its amazing that some voters who consider the economy to be their #1 issue decided that JOHN MCCAIN was their man, lol. maybe they figure PALIN would solve this economic mess. i hear she can see a bank from her house.


ehutch
Comment posted March 15, 2009 @ 12:46 pm

one more thing. im tired of hearing some right wingers trying to blame the democrats for this economic downturn. the truth is the republican philosophy of DEREGULATION is what ultimately caused this mess. these regulations were put in place following the GREAT DEPRESSION to ensure it would never happen again. these regulations served its purpose until they began getting stripped away, one by one, by the republican controlled gov't. these regulations, had they still been in place, would have prevented the situation we currently find ourselves in. these are the FACTS. remember, the democrats had been out of power for many years until recently.


Walter
Comment posted March 15, 2009 @ 2:42 pm

This reply is really late and since Obama has been president for almost 2 months a lot has changed but this is what I think about those 10 things you are arguing about

1. We can't leave Iraq before our job is done and expect that everything will be fine, and that they won't follow us home

2. I can't think of anything to say here

3. well, i think that there is global warming, but i don't think it is our fault, and i think that the government is trying to use this to scare us into changing our lives by buying things that are supposed to help the environment, the world is always changing and there is nothing we can do to stop it's natural ups and downs, nature changes the temperature on its own more than we do, global warming is a scam to make the government money.

4. Oil is useful, there is plenty of oil left, and on our own land too. liberals are trying to save the precious animals by telling us we cant drill in certain places.

5. I am an American so i don't know why people in other countries hate us so much. i do know that China hates us partially because of the stimulus bill, though. If i lived in a different country, i wouldn't hate America, and if i did it wouldnt be because we are the best or because our armies are where they need to be. it would be because our values have changed. for instance we are spending so much money on the environment, entertainment, so called “stimulus”, animal protection, stem cell research, abortion, and other things rather than helping other people.

6. I don't understand how this is relavent.

7. I don't know where or how Obama and Mccain got the money they did, but so far w/Obama we spent over a trillion dollars of borrowed money on a bill that most of Congress did not even read

8. I believe the Correct term is Socialism

1. I do not see how this is important

2. this is really important, they cannot take away our right to bear arms, it is unconstitutional, but that hasn't stopped the government on other things

Also i must comment, why did you keep using the same words: ignorant, Misinformed, etc.? I am sorry this is very late, but i must also add that George Bush had a higher approval rating 2 months into his presidency then Obama has now


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You are assuming alot. I voted for Obama mainly because I thought that McCain would continue the assault on our environment that we have seen in the past 8 years of the Bush administration. I don't give a crap if anyone believes in global warming or not. It is fact that petroleum poisons our environment in every stage of it's extraction, refining, and consumption. Even if our emissions are not causing global warming ( which the general scientific consensus says it is) fossil fuels are still killing our planet. drilling for more is not the answer. And STFU about abortion, a woman has the right to her own body. I will concede on late term abortions however after 6 months a fetus could potentially survive if ripped from the womb, if you're going to abort chances are you would do it withing the first 3 months anyway. If you want to force women to carry out unwanted pregnancies be prepared for a massive influx of criminal activity when those unwanted babies grow up.


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And just to think they were all bamboozled, hoodwinked, and in earnest, lied to…hehehe…how's that hope n change working for you?


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You're saying the “change” is good? What color is the sky in your world?


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Yeah, the economy is sure getting fixed now!! LMAO Pretty soon all we will need is our government ID to walk into the government ran grocery store to get our rations.


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And just to think they were all bamboozled, hoodwinked, and in earnest, lied to…hehehe…how's that hope n change working for you?


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For purposes of clarification, after the great depression the Banking Act of 1933 was established under Secretary of Treasury Woodin. It separated the commercial and investment banking industries providing security. It was repealed in 1999 by a Republican controlled congress and approved by Bill Clinton. Coincidence that the banking and insurance industries crumble soon after, i think not. I am merely saying that maybe it's not just republicans, but maybe the two-party system that allows for the current political situations. The idea that, ” Oh who is the republican candidate? oh i don't like him. Who's the democrat? oh i don't like him. guess i'll just vote for whichever i feel like.” vote for some who you damn well support and stop bitching about the other party constantly! thank you, that's all ha


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The hope remains but the change has worked out very well so far. Obama has put the fear of God into the republicans and has not even begun to prosecute those who placed this nation in such grave danger. Be glad I wasn't elected or the heros of the ignorant would be hysterical in fear of serious jail time for crimes against the state. The last Bush league administration made Nixon/Agnew look like a couple of pedophile priests caught in the confessional with an alter boy and we all know they were far more than that!


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